D&D 5E reducing dominance of ranged: cantrips

[CapnZapp]

To your point in regards to how cantrips like mending could disrupt economies, I would suggest you look to a setting such as Eberron. Eberron did a pretty good job imagining how a world would develop if low level magic was common enough to have a larger impact on society. For example, there was an NPC class known as a Magewright that served the purose of being a commoner that made their living given some magical talent, albeit in a relatively limited scope.

But the key to this is that low level magic is common, but higher level magic much less so. And if you think about it, economies now are constantly being disrupted by advances in technology. Look at how things like Uber, Grubhub, and AirBnB have disrupted our economy. You can choose to either have your campaign world take place during this period of disruption, which could be interesting, or after the eventual stabilization once the world has found ways to incorporate these advances into the larger society to advance as a whole.

Thanks, but I'd rather stick to the traditional elfs and hobbits D&D world, and simply make the rules stop messing with that.

No, I'm not trying to be facetious. I truly am drawn to fantasy in general and D&D in particular because of its static, nostalgic and unchanging worlds.

Why then play 5E? Because I want each edition of D&D to be better, more balanced, easier to use than the last.

Unlimited Firebolts messes with that in a lot of ways.

I have endured them for a long campaign now, but realizing I can't recalibrate ranged visavi melee as long as cantrips remain such a strong ranged choice, made me start this thread.

If I can fix cantrip impact on ranged vs melee, and get rid of the irksome worldbuilding issues at the same time, that's a win-win for me.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think the 4e/5e changes to magic and the way spellcasters were presented really sucks. They basically aimed to make wizards and other spellcasters as standard ranged characters with a "reskinning" of magic. End result is magic really doesn't feel magical anymore.

Sure, 4e committed the unpardonable sin of balancing magical and non-magical classes, so if the only way for something to feel magical is strict superiority, you could have complained about it then. But, I find it hard to believe that 5e magic doesn't feel magical on those grounds. Martial characters are back to just rolling to hit and rolling damage, spells are back to forcing saves and arbitrarily doing just about anything. Sure, some cantrips just attack AC and just do damage, but others require saves, have other effects, and most do damage types not readily achievable in a mundane way (ie other than slashing, piercing, bludgeoning & fire).

Casters in books or movies have better things to do than abuse generous spell systems. This is not a book or movie, this is a rpg. Moreover, it is D&D. Not exactly the kind of freeform storytelling system where you can trust players to self-regulate. No, if D&D allows a player to cast 14400 Firebolts a day, that's what he'll do if it gets him out of jail risk free. Or dispose of bodies. Or do this. Or do that.

Firebolts burn things, bottom line. So does mundane fire. Time not being an issue, you could burn something without magic, too. I suppose you could acid or radiant things to an annoying degree with cantrips, though.

Sure, systematically casting magic in an RPG makes it feel less magical (far more so than balancing magic does), but 1/round or 4/day is different only in degree, and not even that different. And, sure D&D magic suffers from that (systematic casting, not balance, that is), always has - still will even if you start cantrips at 4/day like it really was AD&D all over again.

Requiring a focus to cast spells is problematic. There's a reason we don't do that - it would be akin to being able to throw away the big guy's sword and now he can't fight, like, at all.

Well the big guy doesn't fight as well without it, but he can still punch you, he can pick up some improvised or less-favored weapon and do a little better than punching you but not as good as with the sword. The wizard without a focus, even if you made all cantrips require a focus, could still punch you, too, whether you want improvised foci is up to you.

Re: the slots aren't finite argument - sorry, but I don't have to fix the world's complete logic. Only enough so it works in the player characters' "bubble". Meaning I'm not so concerned about rational economics so much

Maybe shouldn't have used economic impact as an example, then. But, slots aren't finite, they're a renewable resource. Sure, they don't grow on trees - trees take a whole season to bear a new crop, slots renew every day!

as I'm irked by how trivially the game can say "you know all those fantasy movies lately, hobbits and khaleesis and all, and how their world feel... used, lived-in, believable? Well, forget all about that because in this game the wiz has an unlimited ability to make everything and everybody look squeaky clean with not a teared shirt or broken wagon wheel.

Why do people look grizzled after a long journey? Is it because they can't spruce themselves up without magic? No, it's because they get tired and /don't/. You don't need to change rules to get that affect in spite of the odd mending or prestidigitation cantrip, you just need to make rulings. Rule that a cantrip from an exhausted caster doesn't have quite that same cosmetic effect anymore, for instance.

 

[cbwjm]

I think the 4e/5e changes to magic and the way spellcasters were presented really sucks. They basically aimed to make wizards and other spellcasters as standard ranged characters with a "reskinning" of magic. End result is magic really doesn't feel magical anymore.

I disagree, as a wizard I can summon up elemental forces to attack my enemies, blasting them with a bolt of fire or striking them with lightning. That feels far more magical to me than the old "I'm out of spells, better start throwing darts or using my light crossbow".

 

[cbwjm]

Why do people look grizzled after a long journey? Is it because they can't spruce themselves up without magic? No, it's because they get tired and /don't/. You don't need to change rules to get that affect in spite of the odd mending or prestidigitation cantrip, you just need to make rulings. Rule that a cantrip from an exhausted caster doesn't have quite that same cosmetic effect anymore, for instance.

Nah, forget that! When the party returns to the tavern and everyone else is all beat up and disheveled, I want my stuck up noble elf mage to still look immaculate. No tears or grime on their clothes and a prestidigitation spell to make their hair shine and flow about like they're in a shampoo commercial.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nah, forget that! When the party returns to the tavern and everyone else is all beat up and disheveled, I want my stuck up noble elf mage to still look immaculate.

Legolas wasn't a mage and he seemed to pull that off. Maybe it's just an elf thang?

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Thanks, but I'd rather stick to the traditional elfs and hobbits D&D world, and simply make the rules stop messing with that.

No, I'm not trying to be facetious. I truly am drawn to fantasy in general and D&D in particular because of its static, nostalgic and unchanging worlds.

Why then play 5E? Because I want each edition of D&D to be better, more balanced, easier to use than the last.

Unlimited Firebolts messes with that in a lot of ways.

I have endured them for a long campaign now, but realizing I can't recalibrate ranged visavi melee as long as cantrips remain such a strong ranged choice, made me start this thread.

If I can fix cantrip impact on ranged vs melee, and get rid of the irksome worldbuilding issues at the same time, that's a win-win for me.

I guess my fall back as a DM is, "What allows my players the most amount of enjoyment?" If your players at your table think it's more fun to limit cantrip use, then cool. But at my table, they typically enjoy options that allow them to feel like they are contributing meaningful to the game, and in the grittier style of game I run where they frequently do run out of spell slots and have nothing left, they like having cantrips. And the other players in the group like that these magic users don't become a liability when they run out of spell slots.

Edit: Also, if you are concerned about ranged cantrips and such, maybe have the attack modified by their Dex/Str rather than caster ability, but only for cantrips. They'll succeed less often to emphasize the abilities of non-magic users. But honestly, as a player it really sucks to miss, but is more fun to hit. So once again, I defer to fun factor overy realism or whatever.

 

[CapnZapp]

Firebolts burn things, bottom line. So does mundane fire. Time not being an issue, you could burn something without magic, too. I suppose you could acid or radiant things to an annoying degree with cantrips, though.

Not sure what you think you will accomplish with all that relativizing, Tony.

Comparing Firebolt to mundane fire is frankly nothing short of absurd. One let's you apply intense fire damage precisely. The other requires fuel (wood etc) and can't be controlled nearly as well.

I'm getting the vibe you're just being contrarily to have a conversation. Please don't. It isn't useful.

Sure, systematically casting magic in an RPG makes it feel less magical (far more so than balancing magic does), but 1/round or 4/day is different only in degree, and not even that different.

Why do you assume the difference in degree is unimportant to me? It's as if this was some theoretical/philosophical debate.

My issues are very practical and hands on. I don't care one wit about the greater issues, I just want my game to work.

I can't even imagine why you would take the stance that 1/round is not that different (from 4/day). It is so fundamentally removed from the real practical in-play issues I'm having I don't know what to say.

One is continously delivering 1d10 damage EVERY ROUND. Enough to kill a grown man (a commoner) in 12 seconds on average.

The other is... not. It's a huge immediately obvious difference. It's black and white. It's night and day.

I can't imagine what you gain by your highly theoretical relativizing. Why are you trying to steer this discussion away from actual play and towards some kind of ivory-tower theoretical discussion?


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[Tony Vargas]

Not sure what you think you will accomplish with all that relativizing, Tony.

Just pointing out that there's nothing too crazy, world- or game-breaky about being able to do damage very round.

Attack cantrips let casters have a baseline DPR while still displaying magical ability, instead of resorting to incongruous weapons. More of an issue for wizards than clerics (who traditionally had decent weapons, at least for melee, and who aren't reflecting a clear archetype from genre).

My issues are very practical and hands on. I don't care one wit about the greater issues, I just want my game to work.

Then all you need to do is reign in any cantrip abuses that mirror the issues you have with ranged weapon combat.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Gadget]

As has been pointed out, most of the Ranged attack cantrips, with the exception of Firebolt, have a target of creature, thus making the utility outside of combat more limited. Even Acid Splash, which would be ideal to use out of combat, has such a limitation. If it proves problematic, the same restriction could be applied to FireBolt via house rule. A (non animated) corpse could be considered to no longer be a "creature" but rather an object, and thus not an eligible target; so no destroying the body type scenarios.

It is not out of line to require exhaustion checks for repeated use of a cantrip; I wouldn't let a fighter hack through a mountain with an adamantine great sword, after all.

Requiring a spell casting focus for attack cantrips does handle the "captured and thrown in prison" situation, and I don't see this has being overly punitive. The fighter sans his weapons and armor is at a disadvantage as well, though admittedly probably a little better off when likely to be more proficient at employing grapples, improvised weapons and such. But that is one of the (few) advantages to playing the muggle.