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D&D 5E reducing dominance of ranged: cantrips

CapnZapp

Legend
Herein I would like to explore consequences of limiting cantrip use.

The main reason is that if we (as a larger effort) tweak the game to reduce the advantages of ranged weapons over melee weapons, this might make minmaxers simply switch over to Eldritch Blast et al.

A smaller (but to me equally important) reason is to me, granting some characters infinite access to magical powers presents large verisimiltude problems. Wizards trivially escaping cells by burning away locks. Entire economies wrecked since nothing needs repair. And so on. No matter how I try to solve these worldbuilding issues, the end analysis is always "the problem is that cantrips aren't finite".

Do you see any major negative impacts on playing the game, if cantrips were, say, limited to 4 slots per short rest?
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Here are the two main previous threads on the subject that I found:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?445986-Limiting-cantrips-advice-needed
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ing-use-of-cantrips-what-are-the-consequences

Here are few recent voices on this subject:

I think that you need to look more carefully as to your stated objectives and the measures you are thinking of implementing when it comes to cantrips.
For example, my wizard tends to spend around 50% of his combat rounds throwing a 2d8+nothing chill touch cantrip. Is this really something that threatens your intentions to limit PC damage?
Is your issue with the eldritch blast thrower with every beam getting +charisma damage giving at-will damage as good as a longbow?
Or is it with the aforesaid eldritch blast with +Cha damage thrower multiclassed with another class that alows spending resources to do this twice per round?

Nail down what your actual problems with the rules are before changing the rules. That way you can be surer of limiting the collateral damage and unintended side effects of the changes you make.



Seems a little heavy handed, no? Remove all feats because of a few bad apples?

The ideal solution was for the 5e designers to have noticed these issues (which were pointed out to them in the playtest alpha material) and not allowed such feats to have been created in the first place. The ideal solution would be to have more parity between various feat options so that the other options are more enticing. That would be a much better way to encrourage diversity of character builds than to remove feats entirely. Sadly, the designers didn't do a balance pass for feats and they remain more or less unchanged from the alpha playtest material.

Also, if you remove feats, you once again enter the 3e era of caster supremacy. Feats increase martial damage by upwards of 30%, so a game with no feats, the martial characters are noticeably less powerful while spellcasters remain relatively unchanged. Some changes would definitely need to be made to either eldritch blast with a 2 level warlock dip, or to bonus action spellcasting meta magic. Also, in a game with no feats multiclassing becomes even more enticing as delaying an ASI is less burdensome than delaying a key feat in a build.

Side note: Interestingly enough, if the bonus action spellcasting rule was changed so that you cannot cast two cantrips, you would actually reduce caster potential and bring it more in line with their martial counterparts.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Herein I would like to explore consequences of limiting cantrip use.

The main reason is that if we (as a larger effort) tweak the game to reduce the advantages of ranged weapons over melee weapons, this might make minmaxers simply switch over to Eldritch Blast et al.

A smaller (but to me equally important) reason is to me, granting some characters infinite access to magical powers presents large verisimiltude problems. Wizards trivially escaping cells by burning away locks. Entire economies wrecked since nothing needs repair. And so on. No matter how I try to solve these worldbuilding issues, the end analysis is always "the problem is that cantrips aren't finite".

Do you see any major negative impacts on playing the game, if cantrips were, say, limited to 4 slots per short rest?

I'd say so. There have definitely been adventuring days IMC where casters used more than 4 cantrips between short rests. Therefore, this change is a significant nerf to those characters. In particular, it's a huge blow to the Agonizing Blast Warlock, who relies on a cantrip as his primary source of damage.

If you want to reduce the ranged advantage of cantrips, I'd recommend simply reducing the range. As an aside, this would be my solution for ranged weapons in general, if you're having problems with them. Given that you're presumably in a fantasy setting anyway, it's easy to say that the planet has a higher gravity or denser atmosphere than Earth, limiting the distance that ranged weapons can travel. IMO, the 600' range of a longbow is absurd. Granted, it's fine in a war scenario where you're trying to block out the sun with your arrows (quantity over quality), or against an unaware target (like a deer), but if your opponent is aware of you the arc required for an arrow to travel 600' means that the travel time will be absurdly long; the target is effectively working with bullet time, making the attack nearly effortless to avoid.

If you want to avoid casters using Fire Bolt to burn through a lock in a jail cell, just add a material component that they're unlikely to have access to in a jail cell (if they manage to smuggle it in, good on them; they could have probably smuggled in a set of lock picks just as easily). In a high magic setting you would probably have anti-magic cells, or even cells that reflect spells back at the caster making it inadvisable. Additionally, I don't see much difference between using multiple castings of Fire Bolt to get out of a cell or using a single Scorching Ray. Well, one; the guards a lot less likely to hear you and make you stop if it's one spell rather than several. Unless the jail cell is warded against magic, casters have a million ways to escape using magic. Charm/dominate the guard into unlocking the door, just for starters.

As for mending ruining economies, I would simply design my campaign setting so that casters are rare enough that they cannot solve all of the world's problems, and have better things to do with their time than mending shoes and pots. After all, they're not going to do it for the money since someone who's looking to have an item mended (rather than buying a replacement) isn't probably looking to spend more than a few coppers (could be more if the item is particularly valuable, but such items breaking is likely to be a lot less common). That doesn't mean that there might not be a village out there lucky enough to have a cleric (of some kindly deity) who will cast mending on their things. But that's the exception, not the rule. Additionally, this cleric might not always be willing. Perhaps he does so if there is true need, but not if the person has the means to fix it themselves. After all, that sort of lesson is not out of character for a wise man (you can't rely on magic to solve all problems; hard work and effort are their own reward).
 

Herein I would like to explore consequences of limiting cantrip use.

The main reason is that if we (as a larger effort) tweak the game to reduce the advantages of ranged weapons over melee weapons, this might make minmaxers simply switch over to Eldritch Blast et al.

A smaller (but to me equally important) reason is to me, granting some characters infinite access to magical powers presents large verisimiltude problems. Wizards trivially escaping cells by burning away locks. Entire economies wrecked since nothing needs repair. And so on. No matter how I try to solve these worldbuilding issues, the end analysis is always "the problem is that cantrips aren't finite".

Do you see any major negative impacts on playing the game, if cantrips were, say, limited to 4 slots per short rest?

A cell build with a metal door and stone wall could be considered fire immune.

A shop of mending caster could be possible. But DnD have never been good to manage micro economics issue.
Spell like raise dead use for leaders and kings have more impact on a society than cantrip.

Don't put in the same bag Eldritch agonizing blast and shocking grasp. Shocking grasp don't need a limit of use per day. The real issue here is the mc warlock dip. You can nerf this by linking agonizing blast bonus to warlock level. Ex. +1/2 level up to +5.

For the ranged vs melee issue, there is no solution that wont sake all the game balance. Completely remove the SS feat can help.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Ranged cantrips are there so that casters don't have to lug crossbows around anymore. Cantrips scaling up is because casters now have less spells/day.

You also have to keep in mind that a caster can't cast forever. The rules don't day you can't cast a cantrip 500 times in a row, same way they don't say you can't swing a sword 500 times in a row... but either way, past a certain point you get exhausted. It's your job as a DM to intervene when things become ridiculous.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
To your point in regards to how cantrips like mending could disrupt economies, I would suggest you look to a setting such as Eberron. Eberron did a pretty good job imagining how a world would develop if low level magic was common enough to have a larger impact on society. For example, there was an NPC class known as a Magewright that served the purose of being a commoner that made their living given some magical talent, albeit in a relatively limited scope.

But the key to this is that low level magic is common, but higher level magic much less so. And if you think about it, economies now are constantly being disrupted by advances in technology. Look at how things like Uber, Grubhub, and AirBnB have disrupted our economy. You can choose to either have your campaign world take place during this period of disruption, which could be interesting, or after the eventual stabilization once the world has found ways to incorporate these advances into the larger society to advance as a whole.
 

Do you see any major negative impacts on playing the game, if cantrips were, say, limited to 4 slots per short rest?
That's not a fix though, as it equally impacts melee cantrips and out of combat cantrips.

Limiting cantrips does fix the problem of regular magic in a setting where low level mages are super common, thus wrecking economies.
Limiting NPC cantrips would also fix that.


I still think the best way to reduce the effectiveness of range isn't to touch damage or usage but to remove effects that negate cover. And bring back the potential to hit allies.
It requires reworking the sharpshooter feat. And likely the fighting style.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Limiting cantrips does fix the problem of regular magic in a setting where low level mages are super common, thus wrecking economies.
Limiting NPC cantrips would also fix that.

This is also a good point. It is not necessarily a good assumption that because the players can do something means that anyone in the world could. Players represent the very best, brightest, strongest, capable, and greatest potential for growth in the world. A player wizard could become the greatest repair man in the world and in time control an expanding merchant empire based on that skill. But that would be a waste of their talents and make for a boring game. Unless your game is more based on corporate subterfuge and espionage, which also could be fun if that's what you're into.
 
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This is also a good point. It is not necessarily a good assumption that because the players can do something means that anyone in the world could. Players represent the very best, brightest, strongest, capable, and greatest potential for growth in the world. A player wizard could become the greatest repair man in the world and in time control an expanding merchant empire based on that skill. But that would be a waste of their talents and make for a boring game. Unless your game is more based on corporate subterfuge and espionage, which also could be fun if that's what you're into.
I blame 3rd Edition for this.
It codified how common adventurers were, and said that people with PC classes were close to 0.5% of the population. Which sounds low when you compare it to actual jobs in the real world. In North America, 0.5% of an urban population might be Elementary School teachers. (I actually ran the numbers for my school district/county. And 0.99% of the population are Full Time teachers.)

So meeting a wizard in a typical D&D setting should be as common as meeting a Grade 4 teacher. Which feels far, far too common, and implies adventurers are in every settlement, large and small.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I blame 3rd Edition for this.
It codified how common adventurers were, and said that people with PC classes were close to 0.5% of the population. Which sounds low when you compare it to actual jobs in the real world. In North America, 0.5% of an urban population might be Elementary School teachers. (I actually ran the numbers for my school district/county. And 0.99% of the population are Full Time teachers.)

So meeting a wizard in a typical D&D setting should be as common as meeting a Grade 4 teacher. Which feels far, far too common, and implies adventurers are in every settlement, large and small.

Well.... you also have to keep in mind the "level pyramid". Low level "PC-class" NPCs will be more common than higher level ones. The DM's Option: High level campaign (see http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16866/Dungeon-Masters-Options-HighLevel-Campaigns?it=1 , the start of this book is excellent and applicable to any D&D game really) calculated this, with the following assumptions:

-10% of the population is a "PC-classed NPC" (*waaay* more than your assumption).
- Each level has half the previous level. Why? Because the people at the lower level haven't leveled up yet, have plateaued or retired, or die before reaching the next level.

From these two basic (and reasonable) assumptions, you get that at level 18 hero is literally *one in a million*. Therefore a level 18 hero of a specific class is like 1 in 10 million. There might be 2-3 in a large kingdom. So yes, a wizard may be as common as a grade 4 teacher, but high level ones are are extremely rare.
 

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