Reflex Save for surprise?

[aliensex]

I have been toying with the idea of using the reflex saving throw when determining surprise in certain situations. Generally when quick reactions determine the outcome.

For example, a Rogue is waiting on the other side of a door with his bow drawn, waiting to fire on whatever walks through. An orc guard opens the door, is he surprised?

Normally, I suppose this is a spot check with a high DC to determine if the orc notices the Rogue in time to avoid surpise. I like the idea of opposed Reflex save rolls, to see who reacts first. This would make Rogues naturally very good at ambushes, an idea I really like.

I don't know if this has been suggested/brought up before or not. Does it sound fair enough to you?

 

[Sagan Darkside]

I don't know if this has been suggested/brought up before or not. Does it sound fair enough to you?

It is an interesting idea- and one worth exploring.

My one resistance is I have come to like, as a dm, being able to declare when people are surprised or not.

But, I guess your suggestion would make things more fair in the long run.

What would you make the dc? 10 + the CR?

SD

 

[aliensex]

No DC, just opposed Reflex save rolls. The higher one wins. In this case, if the orc managed to roll a higher total than the rogue, he isn't surprised, and we now roll initiative (where the rogue might still get to go first).

If the rogue rolls the higher total, then he surprises the orc and gets the surprise round. Then intitiative, etc.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Hmm. I will have to test it out, but it seems solid to me.

Would you propose every person involved in the surprise gets a reflex save? Or would the people preparing the ambush make one (by their leader- or whatever) and the individual people being ambushed make a save against that?

It would seem odd that some people preparing an ambush would be able to surprise, but not everyone.

SD

 

[hong]

For example, a Rogue is waiting on the other side of a door with his bow drawn, waiting to fire on whatever walks through. An orc guard opens the door, is he surprised?

The rogue's readied action goes off, and he shoots the orc before the orc gets to do anything (with sneak attack damage, even). Then roll for initiative. If the orc is unlucky, the rogue gets another shot at him before he can do anything.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Reflex Save for surprise?

The rogue's readied action goes off, and he shoots the orc before the orc gets to do anything (with sneak attack damage, even). Then roll for initiative. If the orc is unlucky, the rogue gets another shot at him before he can do anything.

Err.. yes, that is how it works now. Aliensex is proposing an alternate way of doing things.

SD

 

[Bagpuss]

Re: Re: Reflex Save for surprise?

The rogue's readied action goes off, and he shoots the orc before the orc gets to do anything (with sneak attack damage, even). Then roll for initiative. If the orc is unlucky, the rogue gets another shot at him before he can do anything.

Hmmm yes but due to the weirdness of readied action timing you have to be careful. Since readied actions go before the events that trigger them.

If the rogue has said "I ready an action to shoot at who ever opens the door."

Then you get the weird situation of,

Orc opens door which triggers rogues action.
Rogue fires crossbow at orc before his action.
Bolt impacts with door yet to be opened.
Orc has action opens door, and sees Rogue who has just emptied his crossbow into a closed door.

Why did WotC bring there weird Magic:tG timing to D&D?

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Reflex Save for surprise?

Why did WotC bring there weird Magic:tG timing to D&D?

*taps two islands*
*counters Bagpuss's argument before it could be made*

SD

 

[aliensex]

Its not combat yet, so there is no readied action, he is just waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone, hence a surprise check. I don't things like that can be 100% automatic, thats why surprise is always determined. YMMV

Would you propose every person involved in the surprise gets a reflex save? Or would the people preparing the ambush make one (by their leader- or whatever) and the individual people being ambushed make a save against that?

Everyone involved would roll. Some would react fast enough to get the ambush off, others would react too slowly.

Remember, I don't think this is a complete replace all rule for surprise. Some situations I think this works, others not so well. In the case of a prepared ambush, where the ambushers have a chance to see their targets coming, then using Hide/Spot skills would be better. In the case of waiting for a sudden action or ambushing by a sudden action (someone coming around a corner, leaping out of a pile of leaves, coming through a door), it seems better to use a reaction based ability to determine surprise.

All in all, its a DM judgement when to use it.

 

[seasong]

I like this a lot. Below is just me playing around with it...

The side that would be surprised gets Reflex saves, at varying DCs depending on how difficult the situation is.

Perfect Ambush (DC 30): Side A is prepared and hidden, Side B completely failed to spot Side A before the ambush is sprung. Individual members of Side B may react quickly enough to act normally.

Near-Perfect Ambush (DC 25): As above, but at least one member of Side B spotted at least one member of Side A and shouted a warning. Side A will attack immediately. The members of Side B who spotted Side A are not surprised; everyone else gets a Reflex save against DC 25.

Accidental Ambush (DC 20): Both sides stumble blindly into each other and decide to attack. Both sides make Reflex saves. Anyone who makes DC 20 or higher is not surprised; everyone else loses their surprise in descending order of their saves.