Reflex save: Need to move?

[Altamont Ravenard]

An issue has come up in Friday's game. The DM is under the impression that in order to succeed at a Reflex save, you need a) room to maneuvre and b) when you successfully save, you automatically get out of the way (ie move when it's not your turn).

Now, that's all logical, but alas, those aren't the rules (as I'm 99% sure of). Is there anywhere in the books that prove him wrong?

It didn't have an effect on the game, and I'm all for rule 0, but the DM seems to believe that he isn't even rulezeroing.

Thanks in advance.

AR

 

[the Jester]

If you cannot move, you fail all Reflex saves. That's the closest thing to what he's running that I've seen.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

If you cannot move, you fail all Reflex saves. That's the closest thing to what he's running that I've seen.

"Cannot move" as in "restrained" or "helpless"?

The DM in question would probably make you fail automatically (or at least impose a stiff penalty) if you were to be stuck in a Cone of Cold spell cast in a 5'-wide corridor (for example).

AR

 

[Scion]

didnt hyp say something about getting a reflex save even if unconscious, just that your dex was 0 or something like that, could be wrong, it was awhile ago.

still though, there is nothing about needing to move out of the area of effect for the reflex save. a rule like that would cause an incredible amount of problems (like being forced to fail because you dont want to take aoo's from the people you would be forced past, or if the dm neglects that, then getting to move a whole lot of extra in a given round)

 

[Silveras]

The confusion comes from a reference in the Evasion ability.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

This *implies* that if there is nowhere to go for safety, you can't make a Reflex save or use Evasion. However, this is never stated directly anywhere in the rules.

The open question is, "Is this a 'crossbow-rule' situation, or a mistake on someone's part ?" The crossbow-rule is a rule located in a spot where you would not really expect to find it, but nevertheless a rule.

The most recent discussion I know of on these boards came up in reference to one of the postings on the WotC web site; I think it was one of the first few Rules of the Game columns, but I am not certain.

The prevailing theory is that bound/helpless characters are treated as having a Dex of 0, modifying their Reflex save negatively ( Base Reflex - 5 ) but still allowing a save.

Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not.

Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

Note that the Paralyzed creature is not listed as losing its saving throw.

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Again, no mention of not getting a saving throw.

In the end, this is an area where the DM has to rule on how it works. Given that even the description of how the Reflex save works *implies* movement:

Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

I can't say I wholly disagree with his ruling.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

(like being forced to fail because you dont want to take aoo's from the people you would be forced past)

Hm that's a great point...

AR

 

[the Jester]

I'd say that your dm is definitely rule zeroing.

"Unable to move" means helpless, dex reduced to 0, etc. I'd prolly even give a restrained character a Ref save (albeit with penalties), but creatures with dex 0 or - always fail reflex saves. That's the level of unable to move I'm talking about.

 

[the Jester]

...which rule is found in the MM, pg. 312, under 'nonabilities.'

Upon rereading it, however, I'm not so sure about a creature with a dex of 0 not getting a Ref save. Seems logical, but not rule-supported after all. Only creatures without a dex score. Huh.

 

[the Jester]

...which rule is found in the MM, pg. 312, under 'nonabilities.'

Upon rereading it, however, I'm not so sure about a creature with a dex of 0 not getting a Ref save. Seems logical, but not rule-supported after all. Only creatures without a dex score. Huh.

 

[silverblade]

It does make sense for a character to have to move to make a reflex save. It is however, problematic because of things like AoO's and restrictions place on movement in a round. It's definitely easier to assume that someone throws themselves to the ground or gets behind their sheild while staying in the same 5 foot square to make a reflex save. Anything else is a rule zero situation.