Reigning in the casters?
- Thread starter MaxKaladin
- Start date
s/LaSH
First Post
Gr, I had a great long rant and then Kernel32 crashed. So after repairing the FATs and stuff I'll try to replicate it here from memory.
Polymorph - WizarDru says it all.
Feeblemind - throw in a dragon for hire, funded by the villains. It's far too powerful for the PCs, and once it discovers this it flies off. But if you feeblemind it, why should it be interested in fair play any more? It's reduced to a mindless predator with fire breath. And the fighters will likely be the first insects in its way.
Spell resistance - throw in some formians or something. SR 21 on a taskmaster: your casters will only be able to affect it half the time, and it can take possession of their minds. Which would really suck for the rest of the party. A myrmach is SR 25, which requires a penetration roll of 15+ at your level, and it's got fast healing and teleporting... bad news all round, I think.
Ambush - surround the party with close ranks of weak monsters. Sure, you could fireball them all - but you'd be at the epicenter.
People who retreat to outer planes should realise that those planes are home to the biggest, baddest monsters in the multiverse. The astral plane may be timeless, but a gang of rampaging githisomethings is sure to cause a little bit of astrophobia.
And time management should be in the DM's hands. If the players retreat to recuperate, the villains kill the hostages - it's as simple as that.
What you really need is a horde of spell-resistant flying monsters. Vrock demons are a little too fierce for that just yet, unless you really want to...
A group of vampire adventurers is a good idea. Because they're evil, the cleric can only spont inflict spells, which heal undead and harm anything else - a good bargain.
Finally, teleport has its flaws. A decent villain will have Screen spells up all around his fortress, giving the PCs a completely erroneous image of his sanctum, so when they try to teleport there... they mishap and end up in a 'similar location'. This works best when the 'similar location' is in an underwater city and is laced with dimensional anchors, or something similar.
(Plus, teleporting isn't the best for long-distance group travel unless you've got lots of Reduce spells memorised. It's quite ridiculous to 'port into a throneroom and dislodge these three-foot midgets with greatswords from your robes. Weight restrictions are your friend.)
Polymorph - WizarDru says it all.
Feeblemind - throw in a dragon for hire, funded by the villains. It's far too powerful for the PCs, and once it discovers this it flies off. But if you feeblemind it, why should it be interested in fair play any more? It's reduced to a mindless predator with fire breath. And the fighters will likely be the first insects in its way.
Spell resistance - throw in some formians or something. SR 21 on a taskmaster: your casters will only be able to affect it half the time, and it can take possession of their minds. Which would really suck for the rest of the party. A myrmach is SR 25, which requires a penetration roll of 15+ at your level, and it's got fast healing and teleporting... bad news all round, I think.
Ambush - surround the party with close ranks of weak monsters. Sure, you could fireball them all - but you'd be at the epicenter.
People who retreat to outer planes should realise that those planes are home to the biggest, baddest monsters in the multiverse. The astral plane may be timeless, but a gang of rampaging githisomethings is sure to cause a little bit of astrophobia.
And time management should be in the DM's hands. If the players retreat to recuperate, the villains kill the hostages - it's as simple as that.
What you really need is a horde of spell-resistant flying monsters. Vrock demons are a little too fierce for that just yet, unless you really want to...
A group of vampire adventurers is a good idea. Because they're evil, the cleric can only spont inflict spells, which heal undead and harm anything else - a good bargain.
Finally, teleport has its flaws. A decent villain will have Screen spells up all around his fortress, giving the PCs a completely erroneous image of his sanctum, so when they try to teleport there... they mishap and end up in a 'similar location'. This works best when the 'similar location' is in an underwater city and is laced with dimensional anchors, or something similar.
(Plus, teleporting isn't the best for long-distance group travel unless you've got lots of Reduce spells memorised. It's quite ridiculous to 'port into a throneroom and dislodge these three-foot midgets with greatswords from your robes. Weight restrictions are your friend.)
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Silent Teleport works wonders.
Psionic NPCs won't be a real challenge, since they can't afford enough stat-boosting items.
Anyway, 3e was tested using 4 encounters a day at appropriate CR.
If you're only using one encounter it's EL should be party average +4, and you definitely should use multiple opponents.
Also, use readied actions. A low-level mage with a Wand of Fireballs can ready an action inflict a -5d6 penalty to Concentration... er, I meant to say do 5d6 damage whenever the player spellcaster casts a spell. Better yet, give the NPC mage two wands (each with only 10 charges), since the player mage will certainly cast Protection from Elements.
Seriously, disrupting a mage's concentration is easy.
Psionic NPCs won't be a real challenge, since they can't afford enough stat-boosting items.
Anyway, 3e was tested using 4 encounters a day at appropriate CR.
If you're only using one encounter it's EL should be party average +4, and you definitely should use multiple opponents.
Also, use readied actions. A low-level mage with a Wand of Fireballs can ready an action inflict a -5d6 penalty to Concentration... er, I meant to say do 5d6 damage whenever the player spellcaster casts a spell. Better yet, give the NPC mage two wands (each with only 10 charges), since the player mage will certainly cast Protection from Elements.
Seriously, disrupting a mage's concentration is easy.
MaxKaladin said:
Your solution to mages stealing the spotlight is to engineer a TPK?
D00d, you're the adversary. The faceless evil. The enemy at the gates. You're SUPPOSED to lose. The problem here is to ensure that HOW you lose ends up giving everyone an equal share of the glory.
The best solution, as has already been said, is to have more combats per day. Wizards (and to a lesser extent, sorcs) are designed to be able to pump out the damage, but only a limited number of times. Fighters and other similar types don't have quite the same max damage output, but can keep it up all day. If your fighters are getting shaded, the logical thing is to design your adventures with an eye to playing more to their strengths.
I'd just nerf the casters. Either friendly ("look guys, you polymorphing the BBEG all the time is no fun for the rest, so lets change our playstyle") or unfriendly ("Those spells are banned.") Alternatively, you can make them see the light - just give them an overdose of their own emmicine - i.e. hit them with their own tactics all the time until they get sick of save or die spells and flying improved invisible mages.
Fenes 2 said:
It's hard to nerf the casters without causing resentment. I attach a file with my own spell-change notes, nothing very radical though.
Other possibilities:
Clerics - limit their 'spells known' - so they get as many known spells as their spells-per-day limit. NPC stat blocks won't need changing, but the PCs will have to think harder what spells they want.
Wizards & Sorcerers - give them a list of available spells in your campaign world. This one is great for a low fantasy game:
http://hyboria.xoth.net/sorcery/spell_list_wizard.htm
Hard to do this retroactively though - I'd recommend letting them keep all their already known spells (which can be 'rare' or 'otherwise unknown') and just bring it in for new spells they want to gain. This is a long-term fix rather than an immediate one, of course.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Some of the best suggestions have already been made, but my take is as follows:
Don't penalize the spell-casters. That their tactic is effective doesn't mean that it's invalid. The issue here doesn't strike me as the casters being too powerful, just well-prepared.
Change the situations to play to the non-spellcaster's strengths. Spell-casters need components, are more vulnerable to time restrictions, have lower hitpoints, have limited resources for their most powerful ability, and so on, and so forth.
Simple rule: any time a game-state arises where the spellcasters are fairly sure that they're not going to be involved in a combat with multiple opponents or a series of combats...they will tend to dominate the combat. A mage who realizes he's fighting the BBEG and isn't worried about more battles will use his biggest guns...and most of those are high-powered insta-death flash-bangs. Set up SOME situations to mitigate this factor...but remember rule #1. You're not trying to take the fun away from the spellcasters...just ensure that the non-casters have an equal amount.
Suprise the players. Keep them on their toes. If the players can just hold up in Mord's mansion or head back to town to rest, ambush them or set up a situation which is time-sensitive ("Oh no, the orphanage is on fire!"). Send enemies against them that invalidate some strengths, such as archers or rogues with scrolls. Equip enemy npcs with items that will suprise the party, but may be of no use to them.
Try and foster teamwork. If the casters aren't granting buffs, see if you can set up a situation where they will. Experiment with different types of encounters. Remember, you want to give the Barbarian a chance to cleave like the wind, not make the wizard think you've got it in for him. Mix and match different environmental factors...think outside of the box. Create an area where magic works differently, and forces the casters to adapt (such as everyone being affected by a 20% miss-chance, for example). Cancelling casters powers:BAD. Challenging casters to find better or more diverse tactics: GOOD.
Don't penalize the spell-casters. That their tactic is effective doesn't mean that it's invalid. The issue here doesn't strike me as the casters being too powerful, just well-prepared.
Change the situations to play to the non-spellcaster's strengths. Spell-casters need components, are more vulnerable to time restrictions, have lower hitpoints, have limited resources for their most powerful ability, and so on, and so forth.
Simple rule: any time a game-state arises where the spellcasters are fairly sure that they're not going to be involved in a combat with multiple opponents or a series of combats...they will tend to dominate the combat. A mage who realizes he's fighting the BBEG and isn't worried about more battles will use his biggest guns...and most of those are high-powered insta-death flash-bangs. Set up SOME situations to mitigate this factor...but remember rule #1. You're not trying to take the fun away from the spellcasters...just ensure that the non-casters have an equal amount.
Suprise the players. Keep them on their toes. If the players can just hold up in Mord's mansion or head back to town to rest, ambush them or set up a situation which is time-sensitive ("Oh no, the orphanage is on fire!"). Send enemies against them that invalidate some strengths, such as archers or rogues with scrolls. Equip enemy npcs with items that will suprise the party, but may be of no use to them.
Try and foster teamwork. If the casters aren't granting buffs, see if you can set up a situation where they will. Experiment with different types of encounters. Remember, you want to give the Barbarian a chance to cleave like the wind, not make the wizard think you've got it in for him. Mix and match different environmental factors...think outside of the box. Create an area where magic works differently, and forces the casters to adapt (such as everyone being affected by a 20% miss-chance, for example). Cancelling casters powers:BAD. Challenging casters to find better or more diverse tactics: GOOD.
IME, talking to the players beats contrived in-game solutions anytime.
(But I am biased. I run 3 weekly campaigns, and I will not enter an arms race with caster PCs. I have better uses for my prep time than spending it on compensating for save or die spells, or preparing situations where casters might be forced to buff the other PCs. I much prefer to just ban any and all spells that become problematic, if a gentlemen's agreement ("Do not use fly/polymorph other/improved invisibility/stone skin/etc. all the time") fails.
(But I am biased. I run 3 weekly campaigns, and I will not enter an arms race with caster PCs. I have better uses for my prep time than spending it on compensating for save or die spells, or preparing situations where casters might be forced to buff the other PCs. I much prefer to just ban any and all spells that become problematic, if a gentlemen's agreement ("Do not use fly/polymorph other/improved invisibility/stone skin/etc. all the time") fails.
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