Reigning in the casters?

[officeronin]

You are having this problem at level 8 and 9?!!! Where are your fighters and rogues? Did they choose dumb feats? A wizard who chose spells poorly is crippled -- why should it be different for the fighter? Do they have equipment? Somewhere in level 6-10 is when I throw in the "signature" item for fighters and rogues. Wizards (and, to a lesser extent, clerics) do not gain a great deal with magical equipment -- at least not compared to the fighters and rogues. My wizards make headbands of intellect and HHH -- and that's all that's really useful. I'd consider tossing in a few weapons and some armor for the melee-types. Even without the powerful magic items, they should be doing 30 or so points per round each (ballpark based on my PCs), and the fighters have to opportunity to cripple the enemy in a variety of ways (trip, sunder, disarm, grapple, etc.). Yes, both fighters and wizards have "save-or-die" methods. Fighters and rogues, especially at that level, should never be standing there swinging for d8+strength. If they are, then they kind of deserve to be second-rate PCs.

OfficeRonin

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The Cleric's current favorite spell: Cloak of Righteousness from Relics and Rituals. Every enemy has to make a save or be blinded for the duration of the spell.

Couple points

1. Your cleric at least has found one of the twinkiest spells in a book of twinkies. Nerf the spell or raise its level.

2. Plan for his target spells. Poly Other isnt nearly as tough if enemies use mirror image or project image. Use project image on them once and watch your mage PC cry like a school girl when he wastes his spell on an illusion.

3. Evil druids with summon swarm and insect plague spells are a great way to deal with annoying flying spellcasters.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Try and foster teamwork. If the casters aren't granting buffs, see if you can set up a situation where they will. Experiment with different types of encounters. Remember, you want to give the Barbarian a chance to cleave like the wind, not make the wizard think you've got it in for him. Mix and match different environmental factors...think outside of the box. Create an area where magic works differently, and forces the casters to adapt (such as everyone being affected by a 20% miss-chance, for example). Cancelling casters powers:BAD. Challenging casters to find better or more diverse tactics: GOOD.

Throw in a golem that has been programmed by its creator to deal with enemy mages first.

When the party spellcasters realize their spells are useless they are really going to regret not having buff spells for the fighters. Also make it worth the spellcasters while not to run. Make the golem very intricate looking with gems embedded in it. The gems do nothing but make great treasure. If I was a fighter that had to hack through a golem while the party wizard ran like a little school girl I sure as hell wouldnt be passing over his share of the gems.

 

[Grundle]

There is a a one word answer to all of your problems: Undead

Undead are immune to paralysis and any spell with a Fortitude save that does not effect objects (like Polymorph Other).

The ghost and lich templates are just +2 CR to creature. They are your friends. Use them.

This is much easier than trying to nerf out an NPC to be a mage killer or practically invunerable to magic.

From the SRD...
Undead: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. Undead are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects, and they ignore mind-influencing effects. Undead are not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. They have no Constitution scores and are therefore immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save (unless it affects objects). An undead spellcaster uses its Charisma modifier when making Concentration checks.
Undead with no Intelligence scores cannot heal damage on their own, though they can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict wounds spell) can heal undead creatures. The regeneration and fast healing special qualities work regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
An undead creature is not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed. Most undead have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Undead cannot be raised. Resurrection can affect them, but since undead creatures usually are unwilling to return to life, these attempts generally fail.

 

[eris404]

There have been a lot of very good suggestions, but I agree the most with WizarDru: challenge them, but don't penalize them. Monte Cook also wrote an excellent short article on high-level play that might be helpful to you, too:

http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly16.html

As some have pointed out, I think that this is at its heart a cooperation issue. The non-spellcasters should be able to ask the spellcasters for help in the form of the "buff" spells, protection spells or whatever. If the spellcasters refuse to do it, then the group should sit down together with the DM to discuss the problem. It's OK if the spellcasters get to shine as long as they aren't always doing it at the expense of the other players.

In your next session, I would err on the side of making an encounter almost too tough - I'm not saying go out and really try to kill the party, just try to find an upper limit to their abilities. See how long combat lasts. If they still defeat a very powerful foe (or foes) in 2 or 3 rounds, there's a big problem somewhere. If not, you can use this encounter to measure what a reasonably challenging combat would be.

Do you award story-based or non-combat XP awards at all? These can be tricky, since they can seem like favoritism, but maybe some rewards for good cooperation/roleplaying, for furthering the cause of the party or whatever might be helpful for encouraging cooperation.

Conversely, I should point out that if a party defeats a foe too easily, you should adjust the XPs accordingly. Now I realize that sounds like penalizing the party, but I wouldn't compound the problem by allowing them to benefit from it either.

 

[knight_isa]

I think the most important suggestion that has been made is to increase the number of encounters. I'm currently playing a wizard, and if I knew that I only had to deal with one encounter before I'd be able to refresh my spells, you'd better believe I unleash everything in my repetoire just as fast as I could. The thing is, I'm usually pretty sure that there's going to be multiple encounters, so I don't break out the heavy artillery until it's required. This gives the fighter-types the chance to do their parts. After all, they can Cleave all day if they get the chance, and I don't want to get stuck with only a ray of frost left when the BBEG finally shows up.

 

[A'koss]

There are some Saving Throw foibles that are hard to ignore though...

For example if we have an 18th level Wizard (or Cleric) with a 30 Int. (Wis) [not unreasonable] and Spell Focus, the DC for his spells is 22 + SL. Let's say that his targets (all 18th level characters) have a +5 Ring of Protection.

Your typical 18th level fighter will probably have a 14 or 15 in Wis and Dex. His Will and Reflex Saves are at +13. He'd need an 11 just to save vs a Hold Person, and a whopping 18 to save vs any 9th level spell that touched upon those two saves.

These numbers will play out roughly the same when comparing against other Wizard's and Sorcerer's Will and Fort Saves (Wail of the Banshee anyone?), Rogue's Will and Fort Saves, and so on.

IMO, it should not be this hard because you have to think about PC survival in the long run. Even half that hard isn't going too far to my mind. This is why I'm going to try cutting out spellcaster's stat bonus to Save DCs and see how it goes...


Thoughts?

A'koss!

 

[WizarDru]

Your typical 18th level fighter will probably have a 14 or 15 in Wis and Dex. His Will and Reflex Saves are at +13. He'd need an 11 just to save vs a Hold Person, and a whopping 18 to save vs any 9th level spell that touched upon those two saves.

These numbers will play out roughly the same when comparing against other Wizard's and Sorcerer's Will and Fort Saves (Wail of the Banshee anyone?), Rogue's Will and Fort Saves, and so on.

Well, usually said Rogues and Fighters also bothered to get a variety of buffing equipment and magical protections, not just a +5 Ring. They should also be protected by their comrades...if they aren't working as a team, however, this tends to be a problem.

All of which is irrelevant as soon as a Maze comes out of the box.

The thing is, we're talking about 8th-9th level players here, which sounds like a more fundemental problem elsewhere in the party makeup. At that level, a well designed and well-equipped half-orc barbarian should be leaving the mages in the dust, under optimal conditions. He's not, and it sounds like he and the others don't feel like they're even holding parallel. That's not a problem of just the save DCs being too high, IMHO.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by WizarDru:

Well, usually said Rogues and Fighters also bothered to get a variety of buffing equipment and magical protections, not just a +5 Ring. They should also be protected by their comrades...if they aren't working as a team, however, this tends to be a problem.

All of which is irrelevant as soon as a Maze comes out of the box.

However, a typical 20th level PC isn't going to have much more than that in the way of magic protection. The fighter for example would need another +7 on his saves just to have a 50/50 chance to make a Will or Reflex Save vs a 9th level spell. That's a lot... makes me feel icky.

Protection from comrades? Great in theory... but in practice, unless you know what you're up against in advance, and can prepare for it appropriately, it's harder in reality to do so. At least IME. Wizards have so many means of offense, you just can't cover it all. Walk into a room and lose initiative to a wizard at these levels and it can literally cost you half your party right there.

Good point about Maze though , I sometimes forgot just how good it really is.

The thing is, we're talking about 8th-9th level players here, which sounds like a more fundemental problem elsewhere in the party makeup. At that level, a well designed and well-equipped half-orc barbarian should be leaving the mages in the dust, under optimal conditions. He's not, and it sounds like he and the others don't feel like they're even holding parallel. That's not a problem of just the save DCs being too high, IMHO.

Apologies for quasi-hijacking the thread, I see what you're saying and agree with you for the most part. My reply was more towards the general comments that suggested that the wizard were balanced at all levels so long as you just give them more fodder to eat up their resources.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Mark Chance]

Conversely, I should point out that if a party defeats a foe too easily, you should adjust the XPs accordingly. Now I realize that sounds like penalizing the party, but I wouldn't compound the problem by allowing them to benefit from it either. [/B]

Good suggestion, and it is not at all penalizing the PCs/players assuming the quick defeat results from me, the GM, overestimating the capabilities of the monster defeated.

For example, my group recently faced an undead behir. I had anticipated the undead behir giving the party a noticeable whupping before being defeated. I even rigged the encounter so that the party's clerics wouldn't be able to turn the undead behir (it simply had too many HD).

Nevertheless, the party made short work of the monster not through any great tactical prowess or insight on their part but because I simply underestimated their damage-done to monster-hit-point ratio.

Consequently, I awarded less XP for the undead behir than the DMG table said to award (and I didn't tell the players).