D&D 5E Rejecting the Premise in a Module

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
"Chaotic Neutral: Creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else." PHB, 122.
You are leaving out the second part of CN's definition - personal freedom. They follow personal freedom. That means they follow freedom. They would be inclined to help those that are not free.

The "their" seems vital. A greedy person values their money, it doesn't mean they'll do anything to protect someone else's. Here it doesn't say they care about anyone else's or freedom in general. They don't, for example "act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect", that's CG in 5e.

Looking for wordier interpretations...

In 3.5, the CN character explicitly "doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom".

That is my point. They took it out specifically to let it imply that they care about freedom. I get that it is "theirs." But, I have yet to meet a person that holds a primary value (freedom, honesty, devotion, etc.) that doesn't apply it to others. The, "I'm honest, they should be honest too," or "We have freedom here, it's what I value most, other people should be free too." See, if that is their primary value, freedom, then they are going to apply it to their world view.

The game's use of alignment in the MM seems to refute your claim on the fundamental nature of CN. In the great wheel cosmology, Limbo is the CN plane in 5e and it's primary inhabitants are the CN Slaadi. "[W]eaker slaadi obey the stronger ones under threat of annihilation". They reproduce by forcibly injecting their eggs into humanoids. The purely CN Red, Blue, Green, and Gray Slaad who are "successful" eventually do what the authors of 4E and the alignment essay in Dungeons & Dragons and Philosophy could have told us would probably happen, and they become CE as Death Slaad. Looking at the other CN creatures, Marids explicitly own slaves (but they treat them well, yay?). I have a hard time imagining a Cloaker (waiting to eat the sick and straggling) , Cyclops (driving off strangers), Kenku (stealing your shiny baubles), Magmin (heh heh fire!), Quaggoth (brutal and savage, cannibals if needed), Satyrs (into kidnapping to feed their hedonism), or Thri-Kreen (will eat you if you aren't otherwise useful) caring at all about whether others have freedom unless it impacts their own.

I can certainly envision a CN character who wants to protect others' freedom because it brings them pleasure, because it sticks it to the man, or because they were slaves once too. But there is RAW of those who are CN owning slaves, kidnapping, and eating other sentient beings if they have no greater use. Clearly if Crawford (PhB) now wanted CN to be the alignment that stands up for freedom in general he woefully failed to convey that to Perkins (MM).

As to your particular argument...

They cut the CN alignment description from 130 words to 23. An argument that things no longer apply simply because they were cut seems absurd and I assume it's not the one you are making. They also, for example, cut that they are "an individualist" and that they "avoid authority, resent restrictions, and challenges traditions" that they don't do things simply as "part of a campaign of anarchy" and that their behavior isn't "totally random". Or similarly, a parallel cut in LE would have been removing "without regard for whom it hurts" at the end of the sentence 5e borrowed. I assume the LE don't now care about who is hurt?

So, say that they cut things - some they wanted to still be implied and some they no longer wanted to apply - because they thought it was obvious from the wording they kept. If they wanted to imply that the CN character now stood for personal freedom in general, contra to what had gone before and not implied by one following their whims, why on earth would they leave the "their" in to modify freedom? If the goal is to imply standing for personal freedom in general, then leaving out the "their" does so clearly and unambiguously. Instead they chose a qualifier. A qualifier that in the past, when they used 465% more words, meant exactly how I'm taking it.

It thus would fall to thinking that one who values their own freedom necessarily valuing others' freedom (and that the authors therefore took that view as obvious enough to overcome using the "their"). But aren't there numerous examples of those in position of authority who pass or enforce laws that restrict others, but don't view them as applying to themselves (queue up a plethora of memes about congress or the police). Similarly it feels like some cultures have gone to great lengths to explain which people are not entitled the rights that they, the select few ,should get (women voting, immigrants, slavery, etc...). In philosophy it seems that it is certainly not a given that valuing one's own individual freedom says anything about valuing freedom in general - , A. Carters "Morality and Freedom" (The Phiolosophical Quarterly, 2003) and G. Gustavvson (2008 NOPSA conference paper) spend an awful lot of time discussing individualist freedom and morality, egoism, and freedom in general in ways that wouldn't be needed if everyone who valued something for themselves valued it for everyone. In psychology, are narcissism and sociopathy both conditions that could value their own personal freedom with no regard to that of others?

That the CN "would be inclined to help those that are not free" and " would be inclined to help the downtrodden" is not implied by what they wrote on page 122 of the PhB and is emphatically contradicted by the creatures in the MM given that alignment.
 
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oriaxx77

Explorer
Suppose your group is playing a module. You all agreed to play a module. Halfway through that module, half of the group decides to knife the primary quest giver and head off for Saltmarsh to become a pirates or whatever. They've rejected the premise and substituted their own.
It looks like it is not their cup of tea but also your new campaign has just started. Flow with them, but figure out what went wrong with the published module. Modern WOTC modules are very long and kinda become boring halfway. Mix them with homebrew content. You can also still reuse a lot of thing from the module. Your players shouldn’t know they are still playing the published module.
At what point should player agency take a backseat to campaign style? Does the answer change if you're playing a homebrew sandbox game vs. a published adventure?

Comic for illustrative purposes.
 

The game's use of alignment in the MM seems to refute your claim on the fundamental nature of CN. In the great wheel cosmology, Limbo is the CN plane in 5e and it's primary inhabitants are the CN Slaadi. "[W]eaker slaadi obey the stronger ones under threat of annihilation". They reproduce by forcibly injecting their eggs into humanoids. The purely CN Red, Blue, Green, and Gray Slaad who are "successful" eventually do what the authors of 4E and the alignment essay in Dungeons & Dragons and Philosophy could have told us would probably happen, and they become CE as Death Slaad. Looking at the other CN creatures, Marids explicitly own slaves (but they treat them well, yay?). I have a hard time imagining a Cloaker (waiting to eat the sick and straggling) , Cyclops (driving off strangers), Kenku (stealing your shiny baubles), Magmin (heh heh fire!), Quaggoth (brutal and savage, cannibals if needed), Satyrs (into kidnapping to feed their hedonism), or Thri-Kreen (will eat you if you aren't otherwise useful) caring at all about whether others have freedom unless it impacts their own.

I can certainly envision a CN character who wants to protect others' freedom because it brings them pleasure, because it sticks it to the man, or because they were slaves once too. But there is RAW of those who are CN owning slaves, kidnapping, and eating other sentient beings if they have no greater use. Clearly if Crawford (PhB) now wanted CN to be the alignment that stands up for freedom in general he woefully failed to convey that to Perkins (MM).

As to your particular argument...

They cut the CN alignment description from 130 words to 23. An argument that things no longer apply simply because they were cut seems absurd and I assume it's not the one you are making. They also, for example, cut that they are "an individualist" and that they "avoid authority, resent restrictions, and challenges traditions" that they don't do things simply as "part of a campaign of anarchy" and that their behavior isn't "totally random". Or similarly, a parallel cut in LE would have been removing "without regard for whom it hurts" at the end of the sentence 5e borrowed. I assume the LE don't now care about who is hurt?

So, say that they cut things - some they wanted to still be implied and some they no longer wanted to apply - because they thought it was obvious from the wording they kept. If they wanted to imply that the CN character now stood for personal freedom in general, contra to what had gone before and not implied by one following their whims, why on earth would they leave the "their" in to modify freedom? If the goal is to imply standing for personal freedom in general, then leaving out the "their" does so clearly and unambiguously. Instead they chose a qualifier. A qualifier that in the past, when they used 465% more words, meant exactly how I'm taking it.

It thus would fall to thinking that one who values their own freedom necessarily valuing others' freedom (and that the authors therefore took that view as obvious enough to overcome using the "their"). But aren't there numerous examples of those in position of authority who pass or enforce laws that restrict others, but don't view them as applying to themselves (queue up a plethora of memes about congress or the police). Similarly it feels like some cultures have gone to great lengths to explain which people are not entitled the rights that they, the select few ,should get (women voting, immigrants, slavery, etc...). In philosophy it seems that it is certainly not a given that valuing one's own individual freedom says anything about valuing freedom in general - , A. Carters "Morality and Freedom" (The Phiolosophical Quarterly, 2003) and G. Gustavvson (2008 NOPSA conference paper) spend an awful lot of time discussing individualist freedom and morality, egoism, and freedom in general in ways that wouldn't be needed if everyone who valued something for themselves valued it for everyone. In psychology, are narcissism and sociopathy both conditions that could value their own personal freedom with no regard to that of others?

That the CN "would be inclined to help those that are not free" and " would be inclined to help the downtrodden" is not implied by what they wrote on page 122 of the PhB and is emphatically contradicted by the creatures in the MM given that alignment.
Touche. You are right about the slaadi. I personally find their alignment ridiculous, but the MM lists them as CN. Yet all one has to do is read the passage on slaadi and see that they read chaotic evil. Every word used to describe them: "doom," "horrific," dragooning mobs," "horrors" among others. It even uses the word, "evil." And let's not forget, the slaadi wiped out every single enclave of other creatures in Limbo. If that doesn't make them evil, then I don't now what constitutes evil. I mean if they are not chaotic evil, then what is? Certainly not a jackalwere, which is not nearly as evil as a slaad.

But you are correct. If that is their definition of CN, then I am wrong.

As far as real life examples, much of those are compromises based on the times at hand. It is not a singularly personal choice. The alignment of a character is a personal choice. You are correct, CN is as crazy and evil as you say it is. It is selfish and individualistic. But history was not ruled by a singular person with a singular interest, which is what alignment implies. They have to compromise to make group efforts work. I mean I may really care about honesty, but when I am buying a car and know they are bending the truth and/or lying, I don't force them to be truthful or leave. No, I need a car, so I work with them. (Thank god I am not a slaadi, because then I would just kill them and lay my eggs in them. ;))

But again. You are correct. It seems I have read it incorrectly. Thank you for helping me to understand it. It is appreciated.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
If that doesn't make them evil, then I don't now what constitutes evil. I mean if they are not chaotic evil, then what is? Certainly not a jackalwere, which is not nearly as evil as a slaad.

I might be able to muster up some pedantry for a few alignment things, but I'm certainly not going to defend it as an entire system or how it seems to be applied for a bunch of different monsters. Holy cow, how are the Slaadi CN but Orcs CE!?

Discussing various things with some friends the other day, and one of them preferred something like wild vs. civilization, or freedom vs. order, to the extreme Law and Chaos the great wheel seems to give at LN and CN. The Chaos they seem to use in the game kind of explains why it was taken as almost synonymous with evil in basic D&D and a bunch of combinations weren't allowed in 4e.
 
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Fauchard1520

Adventurer
But... the deal, up front, is that they have to have characters that are compatible with the module and aren't allowed to go outside the painted area. I don't care if they are heroes, mercenaries, join the bad guys, or just compete with them. They have to address the subject matter, though.

I feel like that's a good way to say it. There's an understanding that the group is going to use the content they paid for. I like the idea of adding side quests, personalizing the module to accommodate character backstories, and using Paizo style "campaign traits" to tie PCs to the existing storyline. But beyond all that, there's an unspoken understanding that you're playing the module to arrive at its conclusion, not your own.

What that does to the group's creative process, and whether that's an experience you want, is definitely a discussion worth having though.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
That said, I find myself reading through Zelazny's "Amber" at the moment, and it's been refreshing to see an old school law vs. order conflict play out.

It also has the benefit of being written by Zelazny, so there's that.
 

Ringtail

World Traveller
I'm sort of experiencing this right now.

My brother asked if he could run a game from a module. The last thing he tried to run was homebrew and he said he got pretty overwhelmed by it all.

We ran the first few adventures and enjoyed them, but the latter half are all just 3e Slog-fest dungeon crawls and its pretty boring. He also gave us a bunch of sidequests tied to our backstory. We adored the sidequests. We loved all the freedom and interactiveness of the world but now hemmed into this dungeon we're pretty bored. We're going along with it because we know its the adventure but we want to go back to the backstory stuff. Two of us are in the Thieves' Guild and we want to pull off some daring heist we have been talking about for months.

It sucks because my brother initially didn't want to do that much work in the game. We wanted a good module to run so he wouldn't have so much prep. Only the result is the module fell flat and the side-prep he did do sort of set an expectation of a more involved game. This also coincides with our switch from gaming at his house to playing on Roll20 because of COVID, so that could be related.

For the curious, we are running the Adventure Path that includes the Sunless Citadel. These adventures are connected, but very loosely. So the Sunless Citadel and Speaker of Dreams were a lot of fun, but the Heart of Nightfang Spire is just not that interesting. And unlike modern books or more structured APs, there isn't a strong thread to tie them all together.
 

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