Relationship between Evils . . .

[am181d]

As a rule, outsiders (and undead) should have fewer recognizable human-type traits and emotions than other creatures. Even an orc might love his mother, but a balor is going to be all about the wicked. Now, sometimes that means planning and plotting and forming alliances to achieve long-term evil goals. Sometimes it means ferocious short-term evil. Whatever makes most sense, based on their relative Int and Wis.

EXAMPLE: The lich king dominates his brain-eating zombie legions through intimdiation and magical domination. His plots are long term and very intricate. They involve political manipulation of human kings, bargaining and bertering with orcish tribes, and the summoning and binding of various arch-demons. The humans may turn against the lich king if they realize his deception. The orcs may turn against the lich king if they don't like his asking price or just decide they don't like working for something dead. The arch-demons may turn against the lich king if the magic that binds them fades. (Or they may pretend to stick together, until the proper moment to backstab presents itself.)

 

[mythago]

Evil organisations and LE societies could not function without those traits.

Which is exactly why many Evil organizations don't function, or at least not as well as comparable Good organizations. The Mafia is a classic example; you have coherence, and a code of honor, but that doesn't mean a) everyone follows it or that b) the Lawful end of things trumps the Evil; there's plenty of infighting, betrayal, and other nastiness.

I believe the original post was getting at the idea of whether Evil-aligned critters automatically have some point of commonality that would lead to cooperation ("Hey, you like to rip the limbs off innocent maidens too? Rawk!"). They don't, although it's possible they might work together for a common goal or out of some other motivation, such as a very dangerous superior ordering them to cooperate.

 

[Goobermunch]

Actually, the focus of my question is more along the lines of: what kind of relationships are likely to exist between different flavors of evil. Clearly, the mere fact that a demon and a devil are evil doesn't mean they're going to get along.

However, when you take a classic example of evil, a la the demon, interested in debasing and torturing sentient life and you put it in the same playground as the utterly inscrutable evil, a la a Mythos creature, what's going to happen?

For example, assume the demon wants the traditionally demonic things, souls, virgins, etc. How is it going to react to a beast that is doing something that might unmake the world? Especially when that beast doesn't have the common courtesy to be able to explain its motives in comprehensible terms.

Does it say to itself "Well, this maximizes the potential evil in the shortest period of time, so I'm all for it!" or does it say "Drat, now I don't get to cause all the suffering I want to cause! Why don't I just kill this beast and be done with it?"

Demons, while chaotic evil, have motivations. GOOs (Great Old Ones) also have motivations. They're just utterly alien and incomprehensible. So how does a demon react to the actions of a GOO (or even a lesser servitor of such a being)?

This is what I'm trying to figure out.

--G

 

[Epametheus]

It'd probably react with annoyance.

As long as the Far Realm beings aren't intruding into an area that demon is interested in, it'd probably ignore them.

A kaorti cyst that actually intruded upon a balor's turf would almost certainly face extermination, though. The tanar'ri are inclined to violence, and when the nature of something actually discourages diplomacy, then there's no real reason not to be violent.

Lesser beings of evil might retreat before incomprehensibility; greater beings of evil, such as a balor, a beholder, or a mind flayer, may well rally their forces and try to stomp out the glibbering upstarts. Beings that used to being at the top of the food chain will react as appropriate for beings of their power.

 

[Gothmog]

Interesting question. The way I have handled the Old Ones in my campaign when dealing with other evils is somewhat different that what others have described here. The Far Realm is a place of madness and terror, not just for mortals, but for demons, devils, celestials, etc. In short, anything with a sentient mind could be affected and tainted by the far realm. Undead might be the sole exception to this, since they are so strongly bonded to the negative material plane, it might insulate them against the effects of madness and mutation.

IMC, the Old Ones and their servants cause distortions in the real world simply due to their presence, which can spread hallucinations, erratic behavior, and eventually madness and mutations with increased exposure time. Its therefore in the best interests of all involved to deal with the presence/threat of an Old One or its minions before the corruption spreads too far. A Far Realm inhabitant that stays too long IMC starts causing the native life to twist and mutate, becoming Abberations. No creature, save undead, are immune to this, so even outsiders have a great deal to fear from the Far Realm. This leads to basically a desperate hunt for the Far Realm creature by all parties involved. In fact, the PCs teamed up with a group of diabolists (demon worshippers) once IMC to get rid of an Old One and its minions. Leads to some interesting RP opportunities.

As for how the other evils get along:

Chaotic Evil- these beings are extremely selfish, violent, emotionally volatile, and typically short-sighted. They live in the moment, and have difficulty planning long-term. In short, they are into instant gratification at any cost. They don't work or play well together, and only threat of violence keeps underlings around.

Neutral Evil- these beings are also very selfish, but they have better impulse control and can pretend to get along with others in order to complete their agendas. They use, lie, cheat, steal, and connive their way to the top, only using violence when necessary or there is minimal risk to themselves.

Lawful Evil- these beings are the most likely to be loyal to another being or cause. They are still deceitful, devious, and violent, but are also careful planners and don't make a move until all their cards are ready. They are likely to abuse their authority when possible, and rely on/hide behind their supporting power structure when at a disadvantage.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Interesting question. The way I have handled the Old Ones in my campaign when dealing with other evils is somewhat different that what others have described here. The Far Realm is a place of madness and terror, not just for mortals, but for demons, devils, celestials, etc. In short, anything with a sentient mind could be affected and tainted by the far realm. Undead might be the sole exception to this, since they are so strongly bonded to the negative material plane, it might insulate them against the effects of madness and mutation.

IMC, the Old Ones and their servants cause distortions in the real world simply due to their presence, which can spread hallucinations, erratic behavior, and eventually madness and mutations with increased exposure time. Its therefore in the best interests of all involved to deal with the presence/threat of an Old One or its minions before the corruption spreads too far. A Far Realm inhabitant that stays too long IMC starts causing the native life to twist and mutate, becoming Abberations. No creature, save undead, are immune to this, so even outsiders have a great deal to fear from the Far Realm. This leads to basically a desperate hunt for the Far Realm creature by all parties involved. In fact, the PCs teamed up with a group of diabolists (demon worshippers) once IMC to get rid of an Old One and its minions. Leads to some interesting RP opportunities.

*yoink!* I love it! Time to add that to my campaign

 

[Nifft]

I'm interested to know why an evil person/being cannot possess these traits.

It's not as clean cut as that. Evil cannot posess those traits, because those traits (along with True Love, Justice, Mercy, etc.) because those traits are Good.

If you play in a black & white setting, Evil is [Evil], and people who are evil should have evil traits.

If you play in a shades-of-grey setting, you can mix Good & Evil traits, because NPCs are expected to be complex.

Either way, Liches & Balors should be very low on Good traits.

Here's how I distinguish LE, NE and CE:

LE: Likes organization, and wants to run it.

NE: Feudal -- organization is based on personal bonds.

CE: Trusts only personal bonds.

-- N

 

[Shemeska]

There's a fanstastic short story by Clark Ashton Smith called "The Double Shadow"(highly recommend the read if you can find it).

Awesome story, and I think it reflects well on the topic here. Always gave me to creeps as the shadow kept getting closer and closer, mockingly closer to the conjurer despite his best attempts to dismiss it or even find out what it wanted till it was too late. *shiver*

And I like Gothmog's interpretations of the 3 flavors of evil, though I'd point out that there are a few more flavors of each of those 3 alignments. Different aspects of NE for instance: a being devoid of chaos and law (Yugoloths) versus a being that embraces both extremes of the spectrum at once (some of the more insideously mad Baernaloths). But those examples Gothmog made a pretty spot on for this thread.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

For example, assume the demon wants the traditionally demonic things, souls, virgins, etc. How is it going to react to a beast that is doing something that might unmake the world?

Gothmog said pretty much what I wanted to, although I'd add that "unmake the world" is probably a bit narrow in scope. More like "unmake all of creation".

Speaking of Gothmog...

IMC, the Old Ones and their servants cause distortions in the real world simply due to their presence, which can spread hallucinations, erratic behavior, and eventually madness and mutations with increased exposure time. Its therefore in the best interests of all involved to deal with the presence/threat of an Old One or its minions before the corruption spreads too far...

From the Aedon Bestiary:

Warp Worms, like all creatures of Madness Dark, do not belong to any part of Aedon’s environment. Indeed, their very nature slowly alters and corrupts reality itself. While it’s warp reality and warp magic effects are only effective around them, nothing about an area they leave from is exactly the way it was before. The difference is so minute that nothing can be noticed, nor does this have any effect on the way reality, magic, psionics, or any other part of nature functions. However, the extended presence of these beings does cause these small changes to build up and combine into larger changes. Walls begin to lean at unusual angles, doorways become odd-shaped, sound echoes, warps, or thunders, distance and perception become unaligned, etc. Given a few hundred years, the lair of a Warp Worm becomes a maddening funhouse of sorts, populated by alien plants, decorated in confusing arrays of color, with passages and corridors that, if mapped out correctly, appear to overlap in an impossible manner.
The layer of a Warp Worm that has remained for several centuries takes on the Mildly Chaotic Planar Trait, while a Warp Worm layer older then a millennium becomes Strongly Chaotic.

Thought you and Ankh-Morpork Guard might like that...

 

[Gothmog]

Gothmog said pretty much what I wanted to, although I'd add that "unmake the world" is probably a bit narrow in scope. More like "unmake all of creation".

Speaking of Gothmog...

From the Aedon Bestiary:

Warp Worms, like all creatures of Madness Dark, do not belong to any part of Aedon’s environment. Indeed, their very nature slowly alters and corrupts reality itself. While it’s warp reality and warp magic effects are only effective around them, nothing about an area they leave from is exactly the way it was before. The difference is so minute that nothing can be noticed, nor does this have any effect on the way reality, magic, psionics, or any other part of nature functions. However, the extended presence of these beings does cause these small changes to build up and combine into larger changes. Walls begin to lean at unusual angles, doorways become odd-shaped, sound echoes, warps, or thunders, distance and perception become unaligned, etc. Given a few hundred years, the lair of a Warp Worm becomes a maddening funhouse of sorts, populated by alien plants, decorated in confusing arrays of color, with passages and corridors that, if mapped out correctly, appear to overlap in an impossible manner.
The layer of a Warp Worm that has remained for several centuries takes on the Mildly Chaotic Planar Trait, while a Warp Worm layer older then a millennium becomes Strongly Chaotic.

Thought you and Ankh-Morpork Guard might like that...

Damn Bendris, thats weird. I have some creatures in my campaign called Worms of Chaos that are about 2-4 feet long, a pale whitish color with purple veins, and tunnel through the earth in a area around where the Old Ones occupy. They leave behind waste that contaminates the area, crops, water, etc- which slowly warps the inhabitants, plants, and terrain of the area. While mindless and non-aggressive, the worms are dangerous because of their spoor, and even brief contact with it can cause delerium and madness in those that contact/ingest it. The worms expand their area about in about a 100 foot radius per week, up to a limit of 1 mile per HD of the Old One. The center of an area corrupted by the worms is the most deformed and nightmarish, while the more recent contaminated areas are less affected. Some worshippers of the Old Ones can actually use the worms to send messages to other faithful, and many cultists often spend hours with their heads pressed to the earth, reveling in the sounds of mindless chaos the worms physically embody. Killing the dominant Old One or minion in an area is no guarantee the worms will die either. The worms can only all be destroyed if the link to the Far Realm is destroyed or rendered inert.