relatively minor items that are much bigger in the hands of certain characters

evilbob said:
Ok, I have to ask... How? :)

I figure 24 ranks, maybe 10 from ability, plus some random synergy bonuses, maybe skill focus, maybe a couple items, even adding a +30 jump spell - that's still maaaybe 80-90. I wanna know! :)

A 21st level Monk gets a bonus of +70' to their movement rate, which translates to an additional +28 bonus on Jump checks.
 

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Jack Simth said:
Wands of Acid Splash (a cantrip) for the Use Magic Device rogue. Great for surprise rounds. 1d3 base+xd6 sneak attack touch attacks - valued at a mere 7.5 gp/charge.
Flasks of Acid and Alchemist's Fire (lots) for the Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue with Quickdraw (hmm... how many touch attack sneak attacks is that per round at 20th when the Rogue wins initiative - at range?)
High caster level Wands of Chill Touch for the Use Magic Device two-weapon fighting Rogue (15 gp/hit; you want a high caster level so you don't have to stop and "recharge" every round) - again, touch attack sneak attack (but not at range, this time).

Did I mention Rogues enough? Sneaky critters, rogues.

Are you kidding me? Activating a magic item (like a wand) does NOT constitute an attack, so no sneak attack when using wands!
 

Rvdvelden said:
Are you kidding me? Activating a magic item (like a wand) does NOT constitute an attack, so no sneak attack when using wands!

Sneak attack can be applied to spells that require attack rolls - why should casting the spell from a wand be considered less of an attack then casting the spell directly? The rogue is still aiming at a particularly tender bit of the target...
 

Rvdvelden said:
Are you kidding me? Activating a magic item (like a wand) does NOT constitute an attack, so no sneak attack when using wands!
He's not kidding you and he's correct. It's not the activating of the magic item that constitutes an attack but that the spell requires an attack roll to hit.
 

Plane Sailing said:
Sneak attack can be applied to spells that require attack rolls - why should casting the spell from a wand be considered less of an attack then casting the spell directly? The rogue is still aiming at a particularly tender bit of the target...

According to the SRD:

"Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

As you can see, while all the actions that derive from casting spells which require a touch attack are derived from casting the spell, a distinct seperation exists between casting the spell and making the (touch) attack.

"Activate Magic Item
Many magic items don’t need to be activated. However, certain magic items need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staffs. Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item description indicates otherwise).
[...]Spell Trigger, Command Word, or Use-Activated Items: Activating any of these kinds of items does not require concentration and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

As you can see, there is a clear difference between activation of a wand (activated by a command word) and casting a spell followed by a touch attack. The spell triggered by activating the wand and the touch attack that is required to hit are all part of the same action, instead of being seperated.

If my interpretation of the rules is wrong, please correct me on that, but it seems odd (to say the least) to compare activating a wand with making an attack with a weapon, like sneak-attack is intended to, in my humble opinion.
 

evilbob said:
Ok, I have to ask... How? :)
As noted above, it's all about speed. A running monk is a thing of beauty when he jumps.

(Also, I have to say that it's hilarious to me that a "check" could have a DC over 100. At that point, why don't you just throw your dice roll away? I mean, it's not like the d20 actually matters - you either have +100 to a skill or you don't.
Heh - you'd think so, right? but last year he was trying to jump to a certain height, and missed the jump DC by two. It was pretty funny for the bad guy standing on the balcony, looking at the monk hanging on to the railing by one hand. :D
 

"If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

"You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage."

Ranged touch attacks are attacks. A good rule of thumb is that you can sneak attack with anything that requires an attack roll and deals damage.
 

Rvdvelden said:
.....As you can see, there is a clear difference between activation of a wand (activated by a command word) and casting a spell followed by a touch attack. The spell triggered by activating the wand and the touch attack that is required to hit are all part of the same action, instead of being seperated.

If my interpretation of the rules is wrong, please correct me on that, but it seems odd (to say the least) to compare activating a wand with making an attack with a weapon, like sneak-attack is intended to, in my humble opinion.

SRD said:
A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. Each wand has 50 charges when created, and each charge expended allows the user to use the wand’s spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick.

activating the wand (using the spell trigger activation method not a command word) causes the the spell to happen. what happens after the wand is activated is the same as when the spell is cast normally.
 

RE: Touch attack vs Sneak Attack

Perhaps a certain interpretation of the RAW could lead to the conclusion that these could be used together…

How many other DMs here would actually allow this?

The RAW doesn’t explicitly state that it CAN be done, but since it also doesn’t explicitly state that it CANNOT be done, some are assuming they should be able too. This is a situation where conceptual logic should be used to determine a ruling where none is specifically written…
These are two opposing concepts.
-A touch attack (usually) requires a lower attack roll because it doesn’t matter where you strike your target.
-A sneak attack does extra damage because the character is targeting a specific (vital) part of the target.

If using a spell/attack that normally requires only a touch-attack, I would allow an attack roll vs. the targets normal (or flat-footed) AC if the character wants to apply sneak attack damage. Otherwise, he/she can make the touch-attack roll and do normal damage (per the spell, etc).
 

It was first clarified back in Tome and Blood (way back when in 3.0e), and I'd guess that most DM's follow on from there.

The idea that touch attacks are easier because you don't care where you touch them, and thus shouldn't qualify for sneak attacks were you do care, is a fine idea. I might even consider using that in my next campaign should it come to it - although I think it is adding a restriction which the rules themselves don't have.

Cheers
 

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