WonkaMania
First Post
Hello everyone, thanks for looking.
I'm a relatively new DM and I thought I'd like to throw my PC's up against a legendary creature, a Dragon! I have a well-balanced group of 6 players, all 2nd lvl characters. They consist of: Paladin, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Wizard. I would like to pit them against either a Very Young Red Dragon (CR 4), or a Wyrmling Red Dragon (CR 3). On one hand, I don't want the CR 4 to be too tough, but on the other, I don't want the CR 3 to be too easy. Since there is 6 of them, even though they are only 2nd lvl, their "effective" party lvl average is 3. I think throwing the CR 4 at them would be good, yes?
Ok, I *don't* want the Dragon to flat-out kill the PC's though! I *do* want it to be a challenging, fun encounter that they remember for quite some time to come (both in game, and out)! I *do* want the PC's to defeat the Dragon! I would say that I want the PC's to kill the Dragon, because I want them to get the XP from it. I'm not too sure, but I *think* I remember reading somewhere that if a party encountered a creature and "defeated" it by wounding it to the point that it ran off/ran away, they would still be awarded xp because they "overcame" the challenge? Is that true or not? (is it stated in the rules somewhere, if so, do you remember where?) If that is true, that could potentially change things, as in the Dragon not fighting to the death. (I already have a re-occuring enemy set up from the very first adventure they went on, and I think a Dragon as one is just a bit too extreme.. hehe) Let's assume that this is *not* the case though, and for the PC's to get XP, they need to kill the Dragon.
Now, I want to pit them against a Red Dragon, because that is what makes sense for the area they are in. I would set it up by the villagefolk asking the PC's to investigate the area, because there has been something that flies around in the night snatching up their livestock and flying away with it. (I was thinking Lambs, because in this case the Dragon will only be either Medium or Large size. I'm going to go with Large size because I think the CR 4 is good for them, unless you all think otherwise. Obviously there will be more "plot hook" then just that, but that's the quick and dirty basics of it)
Now, I figure that for the PC's to be able to defeat the Dragon, they will need to have *full* resources. This means fully rested and all spells available. This puts me in a bind though. I was going to have the Dragon in a cave lair in the mountainside. I was also thinking that it would be pretty dull/boring if the PC's just walked right up in there without anything happening to them on the way. So, I was thinking of having a Kobold tribe that worships the Dragon. It would make sense to me that the Dragon would have the Kobolds at the front portion of his cave so that he has "gaurds" to his lair, and like I said, they would be worshipping him, so it would just kind of make sense. This of course, would drain the PC's resources (the very few arcane and divine spells that they will have) before facing the Dragon, and I think this would *significantly* lower their chance of survival.
(on further thinking, perhaps I can set it up so that the cave goes so deep, and by the time the PC's get there they will have rested.. this could possibly work?)
Now, what is to say that the Dragon won't just fly away when it is badly wounded? Red Dragon's *are* VERY covetous of their treasure (they are the most covetous of all Dragons) and therefore I think that it would stay and fight to the death to gaurd it's treasure. On the other hand, what is to say that the Dragon will not figure out that if it runs away, it will grow older and more powerful and even though it has to give up this treasure, it will amass greater treasure later. Yet again on the other hand, it's Intelligence at this point (Very Young) will only be 12.
Gah.. the more I think about it, how can I NOT kill the PC's with this type of encounter?? It can breathe it's breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. That's insane.. that means on lucky die rolls, it could possibly breath 2 rounds in a row, normal attack the next round, then breath again the round after that. A Very Young Red Dragon's breath weapon would be 4d10 Reflex 18 for half. That just seems like *alot* of dmg to throw at the PC's. (On the other hand, if I went with Wyrmling it'd be 2d10, Reflex 15 for half) What seemed to be a way cool idea looks to be turning into a slaughterfest.
Technical questions:
Fly:
The Monster Manual says that a Very Young Red Dragon can fly at a speed of 150 ft (poor). Problem is, where is the meneuverability "poor" described at? It's not in the front of the MM, and it's not in the Index of the DMG.
Feats:
The Dragon entry says that all Dragons have 1 feat, plus 1 feat for every 4 hit die. Under "Hit Dice" for the Very Young Red Dragon it says "10d12 +30". This means that it would get 3 feats, and 10 HD worth of skill points? In contrast, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon would have 11 Feats and 40 HD worth of Skill Points?? OR, is each different age category a new "hit die"..?
(Upon further reflection, it would seem the first instance is true. As the Very Young Red Dragon's hit dice says "10d12 +30", it has a Con score of 17, which equates to +3, and if it had 10 HD, that would explain where the "+30" comes from, so I think I just answered my own question..?)
Tactics:
As said above the Red Dragon is the most covetous of all Dragons, and I think it might stay and fight to the death to gaurd it's treasure. Now, if the Dragon saw 6 armed/armoured "people" walk into it's lair, weapons drawn, I would think that it would use it's advantage and fight from the air, using it's breath weapon every chance it got. Wouldn't it also stay on *one* target untill it dropped it? (very bad for the PC's) Or is it not that intelligent? Or, even though it is facing 6 armed/armoured individuals, would it land and melee them because it wouldn't want to "destroy any treasure they might be carrying" like it says in the DMG. BUT, that entry says for "small, weak creatures"... I don't think Medium sized pc's would account for "small, weak creatures" to a Large sized Dragon. Also, like said earlier, what is to stop it from just flying away? (this is more of a general question, as I've always pretty much wondered this... that of course goes against what I want, which is for the PC's to be able to defeat the Dragon, but I also want it to seem logical)
Argghh.. you can see how much I need the help!
Treasure:
It states that the Dragon's treasure is "Double Standard". Now, this is where my DM newness really shows. Since the party is average effective lvl 3, and I will be throwing 1 CR 4 creature against them, the chart on DMG pg 101 shows me that this is an Encounter Level of either 3, 4, or 5. First off, that's pretty confusing, how do I determine which it is? I would tend to think maybe the highest because Dragon's are so hard? How do you tell otherwise?
Ok, so let's take it that it's a 5. So I then go to table 7-4 on page 170 of the DMG and look at 5. Would I then roll 3 different percentile dice, one for coins, one for goods, and one for Items? That's just for "standard", correct?
To take into account the "double standard" rating of the Dragon, would I either: A- base my treasure off of the "5" and just roll twice for eatch thing? (coins, goods, items), OR, B: base my treasure off of "double 5" which would be 10 and roll on that table? I'm kinda thinking it's A because what would you do for a Dragon's Treasure that is a CR of 20! hehe.
Ok, so you can probably see that I need alot of help, BUT, I want this to happen because I think it would be really fun!
Any help/advice/tactics would be appreciated, as long as what *you* would do as a DM in this situation is appreciated! (I understand it's not really a "situation" as it's something that I am creating. I *don't* want to kill the PC's though, because I put them up against something that *I* wanted them to fight that they couldn't handle! However, I will *not* railroad my PC's into doing this. They can choose not to investigate, and also to run when they find out it's going to be a Dragon they're going to face when they get to the lair) Do you think they can handle this?
Enough babbling for now, and thanks for any replies in advance! (if the mods don't mind, I'd like to have this in both the General Forums, and the Rules Forums, as it kind of belongs in both I think? Also, not all people check both forums and therefore I'd get a wide array of different answers. Feel free to only have it exist in one place if you the Mods feel that is best though )
I'm a relatively new DM and I thought I'd like to throw my PC's up against a legendary creature, a Dragon! I have a well-balanced group of 6 players, all 2nd lvl characters. They consist of: Paladin, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Wizard. I would like to pit them against either a Very Young Red Dragon (CR 4), or a Wyrmling Red Dragon (CR 3). On one hand, I don't want the CR 4 to be too tough, but on the other, I don't want the CR 3 to be too easy. Since there is 6 of them, even though they are only 2nd lvl, their "effective" party lvl average is 3. I think throwing the CR 4 at them would be good, yes?
Ok, I *don't* want the Dragon to flat-out kill the PC's though! I *do* want it to be a challenging, fun encounter that they remember for quite some time to come (both in game, and out)! I *do* want the PC's to defeat the Dragon! I would say that I want the PC's to kill the Dragon, because I want them to get the XP from it. I'm not too sure, but I *think* I remember reading somewhere that if a party encountered a creature and "defeated" it by wounding it to the point that it ran off/ran away, they would still be awarded xp because they "overcame" the challenge? Is that true or not? (is it stated in the rules somewhere, if so, do you remember where?) If that is true, that could potentially change things, as in the Dragon not fighting to the death. (I already have a re-occuring enemy set up from the very first adventure they went on, and I think a Dragon as one is just a bit too extreme.. hehe) Let's assume that this is *not* the case though, and for the PC's to get XP, they need to kill the Dragon.
Now, I want to pit them against a Red Dragon, because that is what makes sense for the area they are in. I would set it up by the villagefolk asking the PC's to investigate the area, because there has been something that flies around in the night snatching up their livestock and flying away with it. (I was thinking Lambs, because in this case the Dragon will only be either Medium or Large size. I'm going to go with Large size because I think the CR 4 is good for them, unless you all think otherwise. Obviously there will be more "plot hook" then just that, but that's the quick and dirty basics of it)
Now, I figure that for the PC's to be able to defeat the Dragon, they will need to have *full* resources. This means fully rested and all spells available. This puts me in a bind though. I was going to have the Dragon in a cave lair in the mountainside. I was also thinking that it would be pretty dull/boring if the PC's just walked right up in there without anything happening to them on the way. So, I was thinking of having a Kobold tribe that worships the Dragon. It would make sense to me that the Dragon would have the Kobolds at the front portion of his cave so that he has "gaurds" to his lair, and like I said, they would be worshipping him, so it would just kind of make sense. This of course, would drain the PC's resources (the very few arcane and divine spells that they will have) before facing the Dragon, and I think this would *significantly* lower their chance of survival.
(on further thinking, perhaps I can set it up so that the cave goes so deep, and by the time the PC's get there they will have rested.. this could possibly work?)
Now, what is to say that the Dragon won't just fly away when it is badly wounded? Red Dragon's *are* VERY covetous of their treasure (they are the most covetous of all Dragons) and therefore I think that it would stay and fight to the death to gaurd it's treasure. On the other hand, what is to say that the Dragon will not figure out that if it runs away, it will grow older and more powerful and even though it has to give up this treasure, it will amass greater treasure later. Yet again on the other hand, it's Intelligence at this point (Very Young) will only be 12.
Gah.. the more I think about it, how can I NOT kill the PC's with this type of encounter??
It can breathe it's breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. That's insane.. that means on lucky die rolls, it could possibly breath 2 rounds in a row, normal attack the next round, then breath again the round after that. A Very Young Red Dragon's breath weapon would be 4d10 Reflex 18 for half. That just seems like *alot* of dmg to throw at the PC's. (On the other hand, if I went with Wyrmling it'd be 2d10, Reflex 15 for half) What seemed to be a way cool idea looks to be turning into a slaughterfest. Technical questions:
Fly:
The Monster Manual says that a Very Young Red Dragon can fly at a speed of 150 ft (poor). Problem is, where is the meneuverability "poor" described at? It's not in the front of the MM, and it's not in the Index of the DMG.
Feats:
The Dragon entry says that all Dragons have 1 feat, plus 1 feat for every 4 hit die. Under "Hit Dice" for the Very Young Red Dragon it says "10d12 +30". This means that it would get 3 feats, and 10 HD worth of skill points? In contrast, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon would have 11 Feats and 40 HD worth of Skill Points?? OR, is each different age category a new "hit die"..?
(Upon further reflection, it would seem the first instance is true. As the Very Young Red Dragon's hit dice says "10d12 +30", it has a Con score of 17, which equates to +3, and if it had 10 HD, that would explain where the "+30" comes from, so I think I just answered my own question..?)
Tactics:
As said above the Red Dragon is the most covetous of all Dragons, and I think it might stay and fight to the death to gaurd it's treasure. Now, if the Dragon saw 6 armed/armoured "people" walk into it's lair, weapons drawn, I would think that it would use it's advantage and fight from the air, using it's breath weapon every chance it got. Wouldn't it also stay on *one* target untill it dropped it? (very bad for the PC's) Or is it not that intelligent? Or, even though it is facing 6 armed/armoured individuals, would it land and melee them because it wouldn't want to "destroy any treasure they might be carrying" like it says in the DMG. BUT, that entry says for "small, weak creatures"... I don't think Medium sized pc's would account for "small, weak creatures" to a Large sized Dragon. Also, like said earlier, what is to stop it from just flying away? (this is more of a general question, as I've always pretty much wondered this... that of course goes against what I want, which is for the PC's to be able to defeat the Dragon, but I also want it to seem logical)
Argghh.. you can see how much I need the help!
Treasure:
It states that the Dragon's treasure is "Double Standard". Now, this is where my DM newness really shows. Since the party is average effective lvl 3, and I will be throwing 1 CR 4 creature against them, the chart on DMG pg 101 shows me that this is an Encounter Level of either 3, 4, or 5. First off, that's pretty confusing, how do I determine which it is? I would tend to think maybe the highest because Dragon's are so hard? How do you tell otherwise?
Ok, so let's take it that it's a 5. So I then go to table 7-4 on page 170 of the DMG and look at 5. Would I then roll 3 different percentile dice, one for coins, one for goods, and one for Items? That's just for "standard", correct?
To take into account the "double standard" rating of the Dragon, would I either: A- base my treasure off of the "5" and just roll twice for eatch thing? (coins, goods, items), OR, B: base my treasure off of "double 5" which would be 10 and roll on that table? I'm kinda thinking it's A because what would you do for a Dragon's Treasure that is a CR of 20! hehe.
Ok, so you can probably see that I need alot of help, BUT, I want this to happen because I think it would be really fun!
Any help/advice/tactics would be appreciated, as long as what *you* would do as a DM in this situation is appreciated! (I understand it's not really a "situation" as it's something that I am creating. I *don't* want to kill the PC's though, because I put them up against something that *I* wanted them to fight that they couldn't handle! However, I will *not* railroad my PC's into doing this. They can choose not to investigate, and also to run when they find out it's going to be a Dragon they're going to face when they get to the lair) Do you think they can handle this?
Enough babbling for now, and thanks for any replies in advance! (if the mods don't mind, I'd like to have this in both the General Forums, and the Rules Forums, as it kind of belongs in both I think? Also, not all people check both forums and therefore I'd get a wide array of different answers. Feel free to only have it exist in one place if you the Mods feel that is best though
)
