Relatively new DM needs some help: How to run a Dragon encounter without killing PC's

[WonkaMania]

Really good suggestions/tips so far, and thanks for the link Eric!

Making the Dragon a good-aligned one wouldn't work very well, what motivation would the PC's have to kill it? I don't think it would be "stealing" livestock from a town if it was good, and there wouldn't be any evil Kobold worshippers.

After what all have said, I think if I do it (which I want to do), I would make it a Wyrmling Red Dragon (CR 3). This would give it 7d12 +14 HP (59), only a 2d10 (save 15) Breath Attack, a Stregth of 17 (+3) and an Int of only 10.

As for "if they kill a dragon at 2nd lvl what's left for later?", Bigger Dragons Seriously though, they have a re-occuring NPC enemy I set up in the very first adventure that will be their antognist for a long time to come. They will eventually kill that person, but not before that person ressurrects it's predecessor So there's lots of plot and things to do "later on", and I'm sure that they will be quite aware of the fact that this is a baby dragon that they are slaying.

Problem is, I just don't want the CR 3 Wyrmling to be *too* easy for them. it has 59 HP's, and an AC of 16. The bard is an archer, the Paladin is quite powerful as well as the Fighter, the Cleric is a high-strength melee oriented type, and the Rogue will be sneak-attacking like crazy with his Elven ThinBlade. The Wizard, well it's your average 2nd lvl Wizard.. hehe. That's why I was thinking of going for the Very Young, as it would bump it's AC and HP up a bit to give it more of a chance vs. the PC's I would think..?

I pretty much decided that they would encounter the Kobolds before the Dragon, *but* there would be an opportunity to rest, coupled with the fact that I'll make it so that they are dealing with the Kobolds at the end of the night so it makes it a natural resting time. One of the PC's (the wizard) speaks Draconic (which is what Kobolds speak) and they'll be shouting all sorts of things while combat is going on, and the Wizard sits right next to me, so it's easy to lean over and tell just the Wizard what the Kobolds are saying. This also presents them with the option of capturing and questioning one. Their will be Kobold drawings of the Dragon on the cave walls, pretty much the PC's will have to be pretty blind to not notice what is going on.

I just think it would be a great encounter. The PC's get to feel like heroes and build some confidence *if* they chose to do it. Like I said, I'm not going to "railroad" them into it. I obviously want it to happen, but I'm not going to force it.

Please, keep pouring in the responses/ideas and such, and I would appreciate if some of the more technical questions could be answered as well! Fast responses too! YOU ALL ARE GREAT!

 

[Mark]

Making the Dragon a good-aligned one wouldn't work very well, what motivation would the PC's have to kill it? I don't think it would be "stealing" livestock from a town if it was good, and there wouldn't be any evil Kobold worshippers.

Even a good dragon has to eat.

That said, I would think that using nuetral dragon is the way to go. Take the White Dragon stats (perhaps the most managable dragon, stats-wise, for a low level group) change its color to "beige/tan" and give it a breath weapon akin to a first level magic missile (maybe add a reflex save for half damage.) This way you have a dragon with all the movement and other attack options as a regular dragon without the overkill effectiveness of a flying breath weapon machine. It would still be a challenge, IMO.

There's no reason that the PCs need kill it, is there? Isn't it enough that they drive it off? As long as the sheep killing stops the townfolk should be grateful, I would think.

 

[WonkaMania]

Even a good dragon has to eat.

There's no reason that the PCs need kill it, is there? Isn't it enough that they drive it off? As long as the sheep killing stops the townfolk should be grateful, I would think.

Well yes even a good Dragon has to eat, but Evil Dragons tend to eat creatures more then good. Also, an Evil Dragon just sort of "fits" in the situation I've been coming up with in my mind.

As for killing it, no they don't need to, but I *want* them to! I don't want to make it obvious though, and don't want to play the Dragon stupid, I want them to kill it with the abilities that they have!

Does anyone think the CR 3 Wyrmling will be too easy for the PC's to take out? I described my players' party a bit more in the post I made above this one. Here it is again:


Problem is, I just don't want the CR 3 Wyrmling to be *too* easy for them. it has 59 HP's, and an AC of 16. The bard is an archer, the Paladin is quite powerful as well as the Fighter, the Cleric is a high-strength melee oriented type, and the Rogue will be sneak-attacking like crazy with his Elven ThinBlade. The Wizard, well it's your average 2nd lvl Wizard.. hehe. That's why I was thinking of going for the Very Young, as it would bump it's AC and HP up a bit to give it more of a chance vs. the PC's I would think..?

 

[Mark]

Well yes even a good Dragon has to eat, but Evil Dragons tend to eat creatures more then good. Also, an Evil Dragon just sort of "fits" in the situation I've been coming up with in my mind.

As for killing it, no they don't need to, but I *want* them to! I don't want to make it obvious though, and don't want to play the Dragon stupid, I want them to kill it with the abilities that they have!

Been DMing since the mid-seventies and the best advice I can give to you is to not telegraph what players will do. It'll only lead to the frustration of you and, more importantly, your players. Designing adventures isn't like writing a book. If you try to steer toward a conclusion, it is unlikely it will be realized. Firstly because there are so many other possible outcomes besides the single one you plan, but secondly because it is in the nature of most people who are playing a game based on free will to become increasingly less likely to move in any direction that is being pushed.

If you use a dragon against them and play it out for all it is worth, it will probably TPK the group. If you use a dragon against the party and downgrade it so that they can be victorious, you will need to keep this up throughout the campaign or they will probably be charging into future situations where they are in over their heads thinking that you will be making sure that no situation can kill them. If you are dead set on using a Red Dragon against this group to its full capacity and letting the chips fall where they may, I'd advise that you hold off a couple of levels.

Can you throw in a couple of side-treks before they get to this situation so they can gain some experience and equipment? A lot of new DMs think that it is cool to rush forth and get a dragon into their game but it can do a lot of harm to a game/campaign. Maybe your group is more forgiving than most, but so many people like to DM these days that a lot of groups that find a DM lacking will simply play in someone else's game or give the next potential DM in the group a chance before giving a failed DM a second chance. Be careful how you proceed.

 

[WonkaMania]

Well, now that's just damn good DM advice that I can't argue with

Here's the reason that this whole Idea came about. I was reading over the Sunless Citadel (the only published adventure I own) just for some comparison value to what I've already run/how I'm running things. My campaign is based highly on roleplaying, as I believe a good campaign should be half roleplaying/half killing things, and I've accomplished that well so far. The PC's have gained a fair amount of XP from roleplaying things out so well!

As you are probably aware, there is a Wyrmling White Dragon in the Sunless Citadel. I've read over quite a few of the Story Hours' where people used the SC, and alot of people have killed the Dragon with not much of a problem. I thought, "man, that would be sooo cool to have my PC's find/fight and kill a Dragon!" The only problem is that white doesn't fit the southern, warm mountain region that they are in.

The other thing is, my PC's tend to chew apart things I throw at them! It's hard to account for the fact that since there is 6 of them, their effective party lvl is one higher then they are. I threw 3 CR 1's (3 hungry wolves) at them at first lvl, it was pathetic how quickly they dispatched of them! The wolves never even *hit* any of them. I have to throw 2 or 3 monsters that are of 1 CR higher then them against them for it to be a good fight. This is where I was thinking a Dragon could come in handy for a fun and challenging fight!

I think, that if it happens at all, I would make it a Wyrmling. After thinking about it some more, and from your posts Mark, I think that the Very Young would be too tough for them. However, I think that the Wyrmling could still work. I would think it would use it's breath attack to hit as many of them as it could, and then get down there on the ground (maybe hover) so that it could attack them, spreading it's attacks over whoever was around it. (I find it hard to believe the Dragon could center *all* of it's attacks on one person.. I'm speaking in particular about the "wing" attacks, I think those would just be directed to whoever was on it's sides. I think it would be funny for a Dragon to bit at whoever was in front of it, swipe at it twice, turn to one side and bash it with it's wing, then turn to the other side and bash it with it's other wing. That's just a bit absurd.. hehe) While in melee it would just breath straight-forward and try to get 2 PC's in it's breath.

How does that sound? Does that sound like it would be playing a Dragon very stupidly? Would that be a good challenge?

Mark, I guess what I'm trying to understand is, are you saying that my party of 6 should face a Dragon that is only lower CR, or equal CR to the party? You seem to feel pretty strongly that even the CR 3 Wyrmling will be too tough for a party of 6- 2nd lvl chars?

 

[s/LaSH]

The general consensus I've experienced is that dragons are under-CRed for their actual challenge. They're normally pretty smart, though, so if you play your cards right you'll be able to freak your players out and make them feel they've earned a victory even if it was a fairly easy fight. How? Traps. Dragons lair in remote areas, but things have a tendancy to come in and annoy them. So it sets up a couple of Indiana Jones-type rolling boulders, a few caves with vertical access it can use but PCs can't, and dive-bombs them a couple of times on the way in.

That's an idea. If you give the dragon enhanced mobility (because it can fly and PC's can't follow it into vertical caves), it could attack them once, and if they're having too easy a time it retreats to its central lair and quaffs a healing potion. If it's trouncing them, wait for an appropriate moment and then fudge something (preferably when a couple of PCs are disabled or dying), like a lucky sword thrust catching it under the chin or something. You're DM, you get to bend the rules. What lies around the corner is never decided until the PCs round that corner, no matter what you've got written down. Get my drift? Edit on the fly. And keep your rolls secret.

 

[Gumby]

Welcome to 3E, where PCs can dish it out but not take it. I advise you to wait a level before throwing the CR 4 VY dragon at them, complete with kobolds. Everybody has a little more of a hit point buffer that way, the casters have 2nd level spells, and everyone has another feat, which rounds out their characters a little.

If you're worried about the PCs' capability to inflict damage, make sure the dragon has some sort of protective spell up, perhaps cast by a kobold adept or sorcerer. Maybe there could be a few cure potions left in the hoard, or stashed somewhere on a high ledge in the cave where only the dragon could reach. Also, leave enough clues for the party so that they can prep for taking on a dragon, like casting the elemental protection spells.

Edit: Oh, and another reason for sticking kobolds into the climactic encounter: you want to reduce the chance of everybody getting init on the dragon and beating it to a pulp instantaneously. Get those loyal kobolds in there, biting at the PCs legs and slowing them down.

 

[Mark]

Well, now that's just damn good DM advice that I can't argue with

(rest of post cut for space only.)

How does that sound? Does that sound like it would be playing a Dragon very stupidly? Would that be a good challenge?

Mark, I guess what I'm trying to understand is, are you saying that my party of 6 should face a Dragon that is only lower CR, or equal CR to the party? You seem to feel pretty strongly that even the CR 3 Wyrmling will be too tough for a party of 6- 2nd lvl chars?

I think it sounds like you are going about it well. Maybe you can use terrain to rationalize why it wouldn't just fly around until it could pick them off. Perhaps some sound advice from a sharp NPC of how to get the thing into some sort of cave might do the trick. If you go with a slightly stronger Dragon, the NPC might also mention to keep the weaker (lower HP) characters back away from the kind of hits that would kill them off in one shot (perhaps the biggest problem for lower level guys facing a creature that can deal serious damage.) Maybe there is something that the dragon has that could be stolen to coax it into a trap/confined space. Without something like that, it bears remembering that even a wyrmling has enough sense to stay out of harms way in a life or death situation. It would need to be provoked to fight with that sort of abandon, IMO.

I think the lower CR Dragon with the kobold minions idea has merit, also. It keeps the overall encounter level up to snuff but reduces the chance that the whole thing will be over too quickly for everyone to get enough enjoyment from it.

We'll need you to bookmark this thread and bump it later with the results, btw.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I thought the whole point of dragons was to kill pcs?

 

[Goobermunch]

Here's a thought . . .

There are three main problems with your planned dragon fight. First, there is the dragon's mobility. Second, there's the problem of CR. Third, there are the dragon's natural abilities.

Here are some solutions. Wyrmling/Very Young dragons can be encountered alone. However, I don't think it's that common of an occurance. In my campaigns it would be almost unheard of. Dragons are smart and while they might not like their offspring, reproduction is a serious biological imperative.

So why is your baby red dragon out on its own?

There are two very plausible explanations: either its parents are dead (killed by adventurers) or one of its siblings kicked it out of the nest. I like these explanations because of their inherent violence. They allow you to explain why the dragon is not flying . . . its wing has been seriously injured. Right there you've dealt with the problem of the dragon crisping your party from out of range.

You will have to change the set up a bit to have the kobolds stealing the cattle, but that's a relatively minor change. You can cover for it by having had someone hear wings overhead a few days before (maybe momma was searching for the little one . . . or maybe it was just a passing roc).

Your other problem is that the PCs may be too strong for a Wyrmling and not strong enough for a Very Young dragon. Fortunately, you can advance the Wyrmling to bump up its power a little bit. This will help offset the lack of its flight abilities.

Alternately, you can go ahead and make the dragon Very Young and role-play the fact that Reds often underestimate their foes and use claw and bite attacks in lieu of their breath weapon. With the reduced mobility from the wing injuries, a Very Young dragon would be a little less impressive (and probably worthy of a CR penalty).

Realize that even with all these suggestions, the red is probably going to kill at least one member of the party. Eyebite (sleep) followed up by a coup d'grace will result in a very dead character. The dragon may also use its suggestion power to order party members to "Flee!" A very reasonable suggestion under the circumstances (meaning, of course that the PC will suffer a -2 on his or her saves).

Finally, remember that the dragon will probably know that the party is coming and will at least be ready for them. Since dragons have extreme blindsight, they probably don't light their lairs much. This means that the dragon will see their approach (especially since Kobolds also have darkvision).

Even without its wings, a red dragon is a formidable and daunting opponent. I'd highly advise holding off on this encounter for a few levels. I'd also advise allowing the dragon to escape. Dragons shouldn't be easily killed under any circumstances. It sets a poor precedent to allow a group of 2nd level characters to kill one.

--G