I'd expect a Very Young red to easily trash a 2nd level party, but You probably know better than anyone what your PCs are capable of. A Very Young red has a listed CR of 4, but _for dragons_ that means "a 4th level party should beat it after a tough fight" - ie the real CR is about 7.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Relatively new DM needs some help: How to run a Dragon encounter without killing PC's
- Thread starter WonkaMania
- Start date
Re: Here's a thought . . .
I don't think red dragons are meant to get Eyebite at Wyrmling age - it's the only listed ability (the others being suggestion & discern location) that doesn't have an age category listed for it. Given that discern location isn't granted until Great Wyrm, I suspect Eyebite was meant to be reserved for Great Wyrms also.
The suggestion to use an Advanced (8-9hd) wyrmling is a good one. If you make it 9hd and maybe raise its Con, you can give it a good hp total. If you describe it as '16' long from nose to tail-tip' the PCs should be suitably impressed, even though it's still technically within medium-size (about 8' from nose to base of tail).
What you need to avoid, if you don't want a TPK, is using a very young red breathing 4d10 damage DC 18 on PCs who probably have no more than 20 or so hp to start with...
Goobermunch said:
I don't think red dragons are meant to get Eyebite at Wyrmling age - it's the only listed ability (the others being suggestion & discern location) that doesn't have an age category listed for it. Given that discern location isn't granted until Great Wyrm, I suspect Eyebite was meant to be reserved for Great Wyrms also.
The suggestion to use an Advanced (8-9hd) wyrmling is a good one. If you make it 9hd and maybe raise its Con, you can give it a good hp total. If you describe it as '16' long from nose to tail-tip' the PCs should be suitably impressed, even though it's still technically within medium-size (about 8' from nose to base of tail).
What you need to avoid, if you don't want a TPK, is using a very young red breathing 4d10 damage DC 18 on PCs who probably have no more than 20 or so hp to start with...
Goobermunch
Explorer
You are correct sir . . . I've been reading the dragons wrong for the past 3 years. 
Our baby red doesn't have any of the spell like abilities I thought it did.
Well. Consider the a simple primer on how an older dragon would deal with a party and move on. I'll go hide under the bed or something until the embarrassment wears off.
Eyebite has been errattaed to Find the Path or some such.
--G
Our baby red doesn't have any of the spell like abilities I thought it did.Well. Consider the a simple primer on how an older dragon would deal with a party and move on. I'll go hide under the bed or something until the embarrassment wears off.
Eyebite has been errattaed to Find the Path or some such.
--G
Last edited:
WonkaMania
First Post
More good replies. As for why is it out on it's own? Well, it says that younger/less intelligent Evil Dragons tend to lay clutches of 1d4+1 eggs around the countryside. This one would have been part of just a 2 egg laying and I was thinking that it killed it's sibling off in a fight over food or some such. It then relocated to where it currently is, in the kobolds cave. It strode into their lair and told them that it was taking over and they could either accept that or be roasted dinner. They of course accepted and the Dragon made his way down to the lowest portion of the cave.
This also explains why the Dragon can't fly around too much, as the cave that he is residing in isn't too big. Maybe 20 foot at the most, with the way out being through the 10 foot tunnel that led into it. The kobolds are working on excavating the Dragon's "lair" out to make it bigger. This could give me a reason to have a few kobolds in the lair as well.
The Dragon will smell the humans and elves coming, thinking that his kobolds had captured them and where bringing them to him as a present, he will speak out to the kobolds about what a good job they did. (the Wizard that speaks Draconic will be the only one who understands this)
Upon seeing the adventurers stride into his lair, he will be so angered (A- that they got into his lair, B- that his kobold worshippers failed him) that he glides down off of his perch infront of them and just starts madly attacking with his melee weapons. (This means only the people who are *suppossed* to be in the front will take the initial brunt of the dmg)
From there I'm assuming that the PC's would want to surround him/spread out a bit. Seeing how the fight goes from there I can decide when to let loose with the breath weapon. Remember, Red Dragons try not to obliterate with their breath weapon for fear of hurting treasure. I figure once the PC's get it to half HP he will start letting loose with the breath weapon. (I'm going to make it a Wyrmling)
Perhaps I will make the cave only 15 feet high. That way the Dragon *can* still take to the air, but it won't be "out of reach" of the PC's. Considering they are 5 feet tall, and threaten the 5 feet square above them, that counts for 10 feet. Then they just have to use the Jump skill in concert with their attacks to jump up the extra height to hit the Dragon (that IS possible in the rules, yes? They just make their attack at the hieght of their jump) All the while the Bard and Wizard is lobbing arrows/bolts into the thing, it might make my fighting types think about getting reach weapons, and the Dragon can't be physically attacking the PC's at this point (unless it "redies" for when one jumps up at it)
How does this sound?
This also explains why the Dragon can't fly around too much, as the cave that he is residing in isn't too big. Maybe 20 foot at the most, with the way out being through the 10 foot tunnel that led into it. The kobolds are working on excavating the Dragon's "lair" out to make it bigger. This could give me a reason to have a few kobolds in the lair as well.
The Dragon will smell the humans and elves coming, thinking that his kobolds had captured them and where bringing them to him as a present, he will speak out to the kobolds about what a good job they did. (the Wizard that speaks Draconic will be the only one who understands this)
Upon seeing the adventurers stride into his lair, he will be so angered (A- that they got into his lair, B- that his kobold worshippers failed him) that he glides down off of his perch infront of them and just starts madly attacking with his melee weapons. (This means only the people who are *suppossed* to be in the front will take the initial brunt of the dmg)
From there I'm assuming that the PC's would want to surround him/spread out a bit. Seeing how the fight goes from there I can decide when to let loose with the breath weapon. Remember, Red Dragons try not to obliterate with their breath weapon for fear of hurting treasure. I figure once the PC's get it to half HP he will start letting loose with the breath weapon. (I'm going to make it a Wyrmling)
Perhaps I will make the cave only 15 feet high. That way the Dragon *can* still take to the air, but it won't be "out of reach" of the PC's. Considering they are 5 feet tall, and threaten the 5 feet square above them, that counts for 10 feet. Then they just have to use the Jump skill in concert with their attacks to jump up the extra height to hit the Dragon (that IS possible in the rules, yes? They just make their attack at the hieght of their jump) All the while the Bard and Wizard is lobbing arrows/bolts into the thing, it might make my fighting types think about getting reach weapons, and the Dragon can't be physically attacking the PC's at this point (unless it "redies" for when one jumps up at it)
How does this sound?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Another interesting possibility, especially since your players love roleplaying, is to have an encounter where they have to *roleplay* their way past the challenge of the dragon.
More like Bilbo Baggins than Dragonslayer, if you get my meaning.
One of the strongest archetypes for dragons is that of cunning and manipulative creatures. What if they need to find information from it (or bring a proposal to stop its marauding) ? The dragon itself can be one which is happy to talk first (being over-confident in its ability to smack anyone it meets without trying too hard).
This way your party can have a very memorable *encounter* with a red dragon, a challenge which they overcome, without actually fighting it (this time). Then in a couple of levels time the dragon reneges on its promise (or works out that it can release itself from its promise by killing them) giving a good reason for a dust up between it and the party when they are more likely to survive its tender ministrations.
This way you get the best of both worlds.
Cheers
More like Bilbo Baggins than Dragonslayer, if you get my meaning.
One of the strongest archetypes for dragons is that of cunning and manipulative creatures. What if they need to find information from it (or bring a proposal to stop its marauding) ? The dragon itself can be one which is happy to talk first (being over-confident in its ability to smack anyone it meets without trying too hard).
This way your party can have a very memorable *encounter* with a red dragon, a challenge which they overcome, without actually fighting it (this time). Then in a couple of levels time the dragon reneges on its promise (or works out that it can release itself from its promise by killing them) giving a good reason for a dust up between it and the party when they are more likely to survive its tender ministrations.
This way you get the best of both worlds.
Cheers
Plane Sailing said:
Absolutely.
Pick up Johnn Four's "NPC Essentials" and turn to arch-enemies. 2nd level isn't the level I'd pick to encounter legendary monsters. But a LE villain can send lesser bad guys for the PCs to meet, eventually leading to hearing about this bad guy -- and you don't have to tell the players it's a dragon.
Naturally, the party's contact and mentor is a Good dragon polymorphed into a human, but you don't need to tell them that for awhile, either.
Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
Goobermunch
Explorer
If you're dead set on this plan, then go for it. I really doubt that a dragon would be foolish enough to place itself in a cave from which it could not escape. But I think your players will enjoy this encounter. I would be prepared for at least one of them to die as a result.
--G
--G
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
BTW, just to give you an idea of how deadly dragons can easily be if they have their mobility... Last night the party
Ftr2/Paladin5/Iaijutsu master3
Monk2/Ftr6/Duellist1
Wizard8
Rgr1/Rog6
Aasimar Bard7
fought a juevenile green dragon CR7.
By the end of the encounter, and the death of the dragon, the iaijutsu master was on the ground bleeding to death, as was the duellist. The rogue has been dissolved into an acidic puddle of bones and goop, the wizard was almost out of spells and the bard was in good enough condition to stop the two dying fighters finally kicking the bucket.
The party average level was 8.5 plus an extra person, I would expect them to find a CR9 creature a "moderate" challenge. If I hadn't played it as a somewhat cocky young dragon, it is reasonably likely that it would have had a TPK (or very nearly).
Be careful when introducing dragon-fights!
Ftr2/Paladin5/Iaijutsu master3
Monk2/Ftr6/Duellist1
Wizard8
Rgr1/Rog6
Aasimar Bard7
fought a juevenile green dragon CR7.
By the end of the encounter, and the death of the dragon, the iaijutsu master was on the ground bleeding to death, as was the duellist. The rogue has been dissolved into an acidic puddle of bones and goop, the wizard was almost out of spells and the bard was in good enough condition to stop the two dying fighters finally kicking the bucket.
The party average level was 8.5 plus an extra person, I would expect them to find a CR9 creature a "moderate" challenge. If I hadn't played it as a somewhat cocky young dragon, it is reasonably likely that it would have had a TPK (or very nearly).
Be careful when introducing dragon-fights!
Similar Threads
