Relearning 4th Edition

[AbdulAlhazred]

Thanks for the reply, @tiornys !

Where are the feats Enlarge Spell, Dual Implement, etc. located? I flipped through my PHB and I did not see them.

Right now I am looking at being mostly a control wizard with very little in the way of damage. (I believe that was your first option, tiornys.) In looking at the suggested build in the PHB, it suggests Improved Initiative and Human Perseverance for feats, Cloud of Daggers and Thunderwave for my at-wills, Icy Terrain as my encounter, and Sleep as my daily; are these still good options? Regarding my implement, the orb seems like it should be best (it even mentions Cloud of Daggers in its write-up). Am I right on that?

I was told that the campaign was going to last through Heroic Tier and not to worry about Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies. How much should this change my approach to making a character?

Lastly, the DM suggested I come up with a list of items I might want for the character, any suggestions on what would be good for a pure controller wizard?

Thanks!

Be aware, even when playing PHB1 wizard with nothing else that there is enough errata to make a fair difference, especially recent errata (the 'Arcanist' errata). That is still 'playtest' for a bit, but it reduces the effectiveness of both Cloud of Daggers (a lot, it is probably worthless now), and Flaming Sphere (more of a control power doing EOT damage now, you will rarely really dish out a lot of actual damage with it, but it is still a good power). OTOH most encounter powers now have miss effects (usually half damage). Stinking Cloud and some other zones are also now EOT damage, plus zones can now only do damage once a turn. This isn't a big difference but can make them less damaging in some situations.

You really are very limited with just PHB1 though. More so than most any other class. PHB2 and AP added a LOT of options to wizards, and there are many new good ones in more recent material/DDI too.

You kind of have a couple of choices. Staff of Defense and hit on the close powers, T-Wave plus maybe MM or Scorching Burst perhaps. You could work some on CON and AC. You can be fairly durable and get in people's faces when you need to. Otherwise you're looking at Orb. In theory you can then go all over the place with save denial lock down. It isn't as good as it was way back when, and takes a while to mature, but it still works. Even one turn of full action denial with Sleep and OoIC on a solo is enough that you WILL win that encounter. And nothing stops you from blasting effectively either or using zones effectively, etc. I think overall the Orbs are the best implements.

Beyond that all your choices are basically what spells to take. Level 1 daily powers you probably want something like Flaming Sphere, the choices aren't earth shaking, but FS is the best by far before this errata and they may not be using that yet Icy Terrain at least slows things down and does OK damage.

You really can't be a good blaster with only PHB1, so your options are control and control, and just forget direct damage. It is nice when you can do some, but you can't even make the ranger notice you. Icy Rays actually IS a good spell in this context. Immobilize works OK at times (pin a guy down so the striker can get to him, or keep him away from another PC, just doesn't work on anyone with ranged attacks much).

Level 5 you have basically Stinking Cloud, Web, and Bigby's. Big Stinky pretty well takes it as always. Web is viable as it WILL stop someone that can't get past it. Bigby's is almost interesting, you can do some decent damage with it, but it takes too long and it is pretty easy for monsters to get loose from. Not really quite up to being a level 5 daily.

There is only one utility power that matters, Shield.

Any race that can get +INT is fine, noting that races now get a choice of +2 to either of 2 secondary stats instead of 2 fixed +2s. Half-elf is nice, all implements now work for all implement powers, so you can poach from any implement class at-will.

Really, the best thing you can do for yourself, is get them to let you use AP

 

[Kzach]

There is only one utility power that matters, Shield.

I think it's over-rated.

If you get a Mnemonic Staff, I prefer having Mystical Debris always prepared and Moonstride if I feel like I'll be in danger the following round (swap it out with Refocus or Mnemonic Staff).

Shield might save you from one attack (and that's a big might), but Mystical Debris will give you an at-will control spell as a minor action every turn that can shape a battlefield to your liking. And even then, I feel Moonstride is the stronger defensive option.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think it's over-rated.

If you get a Mnemonic Staff, I prefer having Mystical Debris always prepared and Moonstride if I feel like I'll be in danger the following round (swap it out with Refocus or Mnemonic Staff).

Shield might save you from one attack (and that's a big might), but Mystical Debris will give you an at-will control spell as a minor action every turn that can shape a battlefield to your liking. And even then, I feel Moonstride is the stronger defensive option.

If you are talking about being able to use anything in CB then it is not the ONLY choice, but if the OP is really limited to PHB1 stuff, then yeah, it pretty much is the one choice. You might swap it out later, maybe, when you can pick up some other similar capability. There's basically a VERY high chance you WILL use Shield in any given combat, especially if you get close to the enemy much at all. Most characters do manage to get targeted a couple times in a given fight, and the probability of being able to stop one attack gets pretty high when you get attacked a couple times.

The other choices are also just lackluster. Escape is not bad, but jump etc just don't come up often enough to be worth it. Even if you have other things later on that are equally good and maybe in a sense cheaper as they do double duty you probably will STILL take Shield simply because it is reliable and so useful. At higher levels you're likely to take more attacks, so it makes sense to have good defensive adds, especially if you end up with a big hole in FORT, which many builds will (orbizards infamously, who at epic are often just about auto-hit on FORT).

Again though, being able to use more books REALLY helps wizards. You can be a nice PHB1 wizard, but it is not at all like being a 'use anything' wizard.

Anyway, OP, there's another option with the wizard, that again is made better by later books, but is not a bad secondary option, which is to just crank on the utility aspects of the class. Expand your spell book, pick up every ritual under the sun, Pick up as many skills as you can (especially ones that relate to rituals like Healing, Nature, and Religion). If you do get access to other books you get more good rituals to choose from and you can go with the Tome of Readiness and pick up a Tome implement. Being able to do even a bit of power swapping is very nice.

 

[Jacob Marley]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. There is a lot of Greek being spoken here so it may take me a while to parse through what everyone is saying.

First, I am not limited to the Player's Handbook, it just happens to be one of three books I own; the others being the DMG and MM. I also subscribed to the first year of Dungeon and Dragon magazines (through issues #174 and #383, respectively). Information from those sources is what I have access to.

Second, I still have a working copy of the old character builder. It has been updated through the release of the Player's Handbook 2. From what I can tell, information from the Player's Handbooks 1 & 2, Forgotten Realms campaign setting, Manual of the Planes, and Dragon magazines up through issue #372 are in the system. Though sans recent errata.

I am sort of self restricting myself to those sources to keep from being overwhelmed by the totality of information that is out there.

[MENTION=54846]Rechan[/MENTION] - When you mention that the PHB 1 wizard is sub-par, are we looking at a class that is say 95% as good as the average controller? 90%? 85%? I don't mind running slightly behind the curve so long as I am still mostly effective.

[MENTION=2198]Spatula[/MENTION] - I generally like to play characters that can control the battlefield. I like being able to lock down enemies and control the pace of the battle. I tend to be a little more conservative and risk-averse than the average player. I often prefer to play defense as opposed to going on offense. That is why the controller appealed to me more so than, say, a striker.

In regards to flavor I prefer Tolkien-style races (dwarf, elf, hobbit, human).

[MENTION=17633]tiornys[/MENTION] - I don't have access to the online character builder; only an older, offline version. Thanks for the feat suggestions. I'll see what I can do to track them down so I can see what they do.

[MENTION=56189]Kzach[/MENTION] - LOL! The first school of magic that is recommended to me for 4th Edition is the same school that I always dropped in 3rd Edition. I don't have the Essentials materials so can you give me an idea of why the Essentials Mage is a better option?

Also, there is a lot of Greek in that character build. Could do a dead man a favor and guide me on where to look for those feats, powers, etc.? Thanks!

[MENTION=91777]Dungeoneer[/MENTION] - As I mentioned above, the PHB is not the only source I am allowed but it is the one book I own. Information from outside of there I will need to be guided to.

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] - Thanks for the update. I downloaded the errata to the PHB 1.

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] - Thanks for the advice. As I mentioned above, the PHB is not the only book I am allowed, just the one I own. I'll see what I can do to track down a copy of Arcane Power. I am not looking to spend a lot of money, so I am interested in limiting my source material somewhat. Unfortunately, the online character builder is not an option. Also, what is OoIC?

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I am going to play around with some options this weekend.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ah, OK. Yeah, it is a bit tricky to tell EXACTLY what you have and exactly what your CB will do, lol. A number of PHB2 feats kind of got changed a bit, but you can work that out if you need to. Since you would have access to AP you may find some of the at-wills in there to be useful. I really am not sure what all was released in Dragon at that time, maybe the article that had Grasp of the Grave in it, etc? Definitely look for some stuff from AP that will be in your CB. AP gives you a bunch more good powers and you can do a viable illusion or summoning type them, as well as added goodness for the utility wizard. Also if you can play a Genasi then Blaster Wizard is a LOT more viable, and you do have some nice feat choices. Dual Implement Spellcaster is really a very handy thing...

 

[malraux]

[MENTION=2198]Spatula[/MENTION] - I generally like to play characters that can control the battlefield. I like being able to lock down enemies and control the pace of the battle. I tend to be a little more conservative and risk-averse than the average player. I often prefer to play defense as opposed to going on offense. That is why the controller appealed to me more so than, say, a striker.

In regards to flavor I prefer Tolkien-style races (dwarf, elf, hobbit, human).

fwiw, the fighter is almost as good at that as the wizard. Its defensive, locks enemies down, etc.

 

[Rechan]

When you mention that the PHB 1 wizard is sub-par, are we looking at a class that is say 95% as good as the average controller? 90%? 85%? I don't mind running slightly behind the curve so long as I am still mostly effective.

It's hard to put into exact numbers. But let me rephrase.

Many of the PHB1 Wizard powers are subpar. In that, for instance, a wizard had a burst At Wills that hit all targets, but later controllers had At Willss out of the gate that could just hit only enemies in the same burst. The Encounters were a bit on the weak side as well. (Wizard Dailies still rock the house). It's hard for me to cite specifics because I'm visiting family (no access to books).

Let me give you an example of what I mean, while answering your question to Kzach (why Essentials is better). Basically the Essentials mage is 1) cleaned up PHB1 eratta wizard, 2) the powers have received an upgrade, and 3) there are options such as a renamed Charm Person, etc etc.

The PHB1 wizard has an At-Will Thunderwave. It's a Close Blast 3 that attacks all creatures in a the area, attacks vs. fort for 1d8+Int damage, and push them equal to your Wisdom bonus, yes?

The Essentials Mage has an At Will Beguiling Strands, Close blast 5, enemies in the burst, attack vs. Will. Int mod psych damage, push 3.

So, you lose a d8 of damage, in exchange you get a larger blast that does not effect your allies, and targets Will instead of Fort (fort is seen as one of the worst defenses to hit). And you push them a guaranteed 3 squares.

The PHB1 wizard has Scorching Burst. Area 1 that does 1d6 fire, attacks Ref, attacks all creatures in burst.

The Essentials Mage has Freezing Burst, which does everything of the above (Except does cold damage) and allows you to slide the target you hit 1 square.

They also offer at-wills that just do not compare to what's presented in PHb1..

They present 3 Encounter powers at level 1. Burning Hands (same as PHB). Then 'Chasm of Misplaced Wrath'. It's a single target power that attacks will. If you hit, you slide the target 3 and daze them until the end of your turn (Daze is Great). The Effect (so this goes off if you hit or miss): the target makes a basic attack against a creature of your choice as a free action, with a +2 to the attack. Finally there's Illusory Obstacles, an Area Burst 1 that targets enemies, targets their will. Hit: Target is dazed and can't charge until the end of your next turn. Miss: target can't charge. Again, daze is great. But that right there would pretty much lock down several targets at once at the start of a fight.

The nice thing, also, is that if you went with the Essentials Mage, you could still pick a Wizard encounter or Daily power from another source, IIRC.

Summing up

The Essentials just made the PHB1 Wizard spells more on par with other controllers and placed most of them in one place. The only thing that the PHB1 wizard gets that the Essentials mage does not is the Implement mastery, and free rituals.

 

[Kzach]

Honestly if you've got the old Character Builder then in terms of being overwhelmed, there's very little difference between the old and new so you may as well get the benefits of the new one. Plus having the ability to search through the Compendium for everything is never a bad choice when actively playing 4e.

For me personally, the Essentials Mage is simply more... magey. The PHB1 Wizard just never really grabbed me. I never felt like it was a wizard or mage, I just felt like it was subpar at everything and had no real focus (which it turned out that it didn't).

The mage, on the other hand, is just really well designed from the get-go. It really FEELS like a mage. The choice of specialising in a school right from the start plus the other little additions it has just make it play a lot better as well, IMO.

Also, with the new character builder you'll be able to access Themes. Order Adept is a very nice theme for a wizard/mage because it gives you more spells in your spellbook. Combined with Expanded Spellbook, you end up with a lot of options for your spell choices. Then when you use a Mnemonic Staff and powers like Refocus (both allow you to swap out a spell you have prepared but not cast for one from your spellbook, in mid combat... that's amazingly powerful when you've got a large variety of spells to choose from with Expanded Spellbook and the Order Adept Theme).

Hypnotism is a fantastic spell that a lot of people overlook simply because there are so many good wizard at-wills to choose from. But when combined with the Enchanter specialisation (adds 2 squares to any push, pull or slide effect from a spell with the enchantment keyword), you can at-will slide someone up to 5 squares with an attack that targets Will! Or you can make them hit one of their friends with a +4 bonus to the attack roll! Those two options would both be awesome at-wills alone but they're combined into one power? Hell yes!

Beguiling Strands is another absolutely great control power. Close Blast 5, yes that's right, 5, only hits enemies, attacks Will, and with Enchanter specialisation, any targets in the blast that you hit, you can push up to 5 squares. Talk about control! The damage is minimal but it still makes a nice minion cleaner even if you don't want the control aspect.

Then there's Stone Blood. With Enlarge Spell as a feat, you can make it an Area Burst 2 (which is a massive 5 squares a side) within 10. You lose 2 points of damage from the 1d6+INT roll, but who cares? You slow every single opponent you hit. It attacks Fortitude but that's still better than AC.

When you combine it with World Serpent's Grasp (a feat which lets you knock prone any slowed or immobilised target that you hit with an attack), you quickly become the master manipulator of a battlefield.

And things only get nastier as you go up in levels. Start stacking damaging zones with difficult terrain, slows, immobilisation, prones and spells that move multiple targets where you want them (try looking up Visions of Avarice if you get Compendium access), and you end up having a really nasty character that really does control enemies.

 

[Spatula]

[MENTION=2198]Spatula[/MENTION] - I generally like to play characters that can control the battlefield. I like being able to lock down enemies and control the pace of the battle. I tend to be a little more conservative and risk-averse than the average player. I often prefer to play defense as opposed to going on offense. That is why the controller appealed to me more so than, say, a striker.

In regards to flavor I prefer Tolkien-style races (dwarf, elf, hobbit, human).

I will echo the others in pointing you towards the Essentials Mage, found in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Everything you need will be in that one book - races (classics only), feats, and the Mage class itself. You can basically ditch the PHB1 if you go that route. Most importantly about using HotFL to build your character, there won't be an overwhelming array of options, and all of the options presented will be good. The mage is simple to build, in that you just pick a school of magic to specialize in, and take the spells for that school. You also have the freedom to pick up spells from other schools if you wish.

The important feats are Expertise for your implement (wand, staff, or orb - I recommend orb for the boost to forced movement), Armor Proficiency: Leather, and Improved Defenses. Implement Focus is a good one as well. Any other feats could be spent on whatever strikes your fancy.

And don't sweat picking the perfect magic items or getting into some of the newer options like themes. That's all IMO. I hope that you have fun with it, and I hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[Kzach]

The important feats are Expertise for your implement (wand, staff, or orb - I recommend orb for the boost to forced movement), Armor Proficiency: Leather, and Improved Defenses. Implement Focus is a good one as well. Any other feats could be spent on whatever strikes your fancy.

Although there are extra benefits from each of the implement expertise feats (Staff Expertise, Orb Expertise, Wand Expertise, Rod Expertise) and even though having a +1 to hit is almost never a bad thing, arguably their benefit is overshadowed by other feat choices until Paragon. It's therefore (again arguably) not worth taking until 8th or even 10th-level.