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kayman

Explorer
I'm going to be blunt, I think your group was the problem with your group, and you're kind of scapegoating the system. Do you really think its the system's fault your players are 'hating each other?' if it was that severe wouldn't it be time to revisit their demand you run it exactly as written and accept you'd all have more fun with slightly adjusted encounters?

If they don't want to get better, and they don't want you to make it easier, and they're getting angry about it all the same, and then take it out on each other, they sound like jaw-droppingly immature people. As a GM I'm kind of secondhand upset they put you through that, and would have slapped them down hard. For point of reference, I went through something similar with a 5e group, and then went on to enjoy the system more with other people entirely after leaving that group.

Any game is garbage with toxic people, and if all it takes is a hard game to bring out the worst in them... then yeah, def toxic people.
but i think Retreater has a point , AoA IMHO was not design very well... the devs struggles with the idea of introducing the world Golarion and the new rules... and the AP ended being extremely railtoad and very hard (bad design for me) ...
 

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Retreater

Legend
I'm going to be blunt, I think your group was the problem with your group, and you're kind of scapegoating the system. Do you really think its the system's fault your players are 'hating each other?' if it was that severe wouldn't it be time to revisit their demand you run it exactly as written and accept you'd all have more fun with slightly adjusted encounters?

If they don't want to get better, and they don't want you to make it easier, and they're getting angry about it all the same, and then take it out on each other, they sound like jaw-droppingly immature people. As a GM I'm kind of secondhand upset they put you through that, and would have slapped them down hard. For point of reference, I went through something similar with a 5e group, and then went on to enjoy the system more with other people entirely after leaving that group.

Any game is garbage with toxic people, and if all it takes is a hard game to bring out the worst in them... then yeah, def toxic people.
Thanks for that, honestly. I've been beating myself up over the failings of that group and the dissolution of the friendships. It caused a lot of turmoil and stress, and it's hard to not associate those bad times with the system, because we had years of more positive gaming experiences.
But in any case, that was my group that would experiment with other systems and try more crunchy rulesets. PF2, Level Up (when it's released), SWADE, WFRPG, etc, are all off the table unless I meet new players and start another group, which is going to be very difficult these days.
 

Thanks for that, honestly. I've been beating myself up over the failings of that group and the dissolution of the friendships. It caused a lot of turmoil and stress, and it's hard to not associate those bad times with the system, because we had years of more positive gaming experiences.
But in any case, that was my group that would experiment with other systems and try more crunchy rulesets. PF2, Level Up (when it's released), SWADE, WFRPG, etc, are all off the table unless I meet new players and start another group, which is going to be very difficult these days.
Understandable, I moved on from 4e to 5e because I had a hard time not associating the rule set I once loved with the someone whose abuse led to me having to go to therapy, so I don't blame you.
 

Retreater

Legend
but i think Retreater has a point , AoA IMHO was not design very well... the devs struggles with the idea of introducing the world Golarion and the new rules... and the AP ended being extremely railtoad and very hard (bad design for me) ...
It wasn't just that it was difficult, it's that there were pages of expository, irrelevant history throughout. It was convoluted, and I could never get into a plot that should've simply been about: there's an evil dragon god trying to re-enter the world.
I made it only through two modules and there were like three different similar factions, a thousand years of history that didn't involve the characters, etc. It was a bloated mess that served as a perfect microcosm of PF1 and their setting.
Adventure design isn't about writing a novel, and I think Paizo has lost track of that. It should be streamlined, easy to interpret, giving ample opportunity for the players to become involved and to tell their stories. I've mentioned before that they need to return to a "meat and potatoes" design. Players add the spice and flavor.
It's as if Paizo doesn't intend people to actually play these Adventure Paths.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Any game is garbage with toxic people, and if all it takes is a hard game to bring out the worst in them... then yeah, def toxic people.
Mod Note:

Now, imagine if you will, that I described what you just said to someone not on these boards, and they said, "Oh, geeze, that person's a jerk, definitely toxic! Maybe you should ban him or something."

Do you think I should listen to them, or should I say, "Hey, you've never met them, and this was just one incident. Maybe shouldn't be passing such harsh judgement on them."?

Hm? Should I listen to my better nature, or to what people who have never met you say? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Next time, please listen to your own better nature, not your judgmental side.
 
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I definitely don't want to comment on moderation, but since this was in reference to my players and my issue at the table, can we just cool the temperature here? I'd hate to see anyone get banned about commenting about a player at my table who literally had my wife in tears because of his misogynistic attitude, which is what I think @The-Magic-Sword was referring to.
Accurate, I'm sorry If I did insult you personally, it was your players putting you through that sort of stuff (in prior comments as well) that I was criticizing.
 

Campbell

Legend
I definitely don't want to comment on moderation, but since this was in reference to my players and my issue at the table, can we just cool the temperature here? I'd hate to see anyone get banned about commenting about a player at my table who literally had my wife in tears because of his misogynistic attitude, which is what I think @The-Magic-Sword was referring to.

Sorry you had to deal with that brother.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Personally? I think that they're playing a longer term strategy overall, and that they knew they were functionally resetting their player base to grow it over again with the new edition, 1e was a very particular situation they've mentioned knowing they wouldn't be able to recapture.

My evidence for something not being quite right with the amazon numbers as a metric, is the growth of the sub accelerating over the same period. I assume we're not just getting more people clicking subscribe without actually getting into the game at all. I do think people finally getting core books in that humble bundle was a major contributor, and probably a mass move to pdf following a general switch to online gaming.

There are only 25,000 subs on the PF2E Subreddit. That's... really not a lot, particularly after two years.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
As a point of comparison, the Pathfinder general Subreddit, which is almost all 1E chatter, has 100,000+ subs, while D&D Next, the major 5E focused Subreddit, has 440,000.

The generic D&D Subreddit has 3.4 million, and the Call of Cthulu Subreddit has 34,300.
 

As a point of comparison, the Pathfinder general Subreddit, which is almost all 1E chatter, has 100,000+ subs, while D&D Next, the major 5E focused Subreddit, has 440,000.

The generic D&D Subreddit has 3.4 million, and the Call of Cthulu Subreddit has 34,300.
While accurate, none of those systems are this young.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
If I'm reading the chart I linked above correctly, we got like those subs in like the last six months. The game itself came out a year and a half ago, at this point.

I mean, it's grown, but it's still a fraction of the active PF1E community, and smaller than other RPG Subreddits, like Call of Cthulu.

It's not that nobody plays it, or is buying it, but it is not what Pathfinder was, or could have been.
 


I don't view it as the sort of product that's defined by its starting market penetration, I see it as a climb, and specifically one that progressively gains more momentum.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I don't view it as the sort of product that's defined by its starting market penetration, I see it as a climb, and specifically one that progressively gains more momentum.

But as the Amazon numbers show, the momentum is not growing, in particular, and the hour is late. And the numbers on the PF2E Subreddit have not really surged that much since the playtest, just like 10,000 or so.
 



Retreater

Legend
I've signed up for a few games PF2 Society games at Virtual TotalCon next weekend. I'll get a chance to play and see if I can enjoy the system better with a new perspective. It's also a way to put my money where my mouth is. I've been critical that I wasn't seeing much activity on the Society front, so I wanted to at least show them some support.
Heck, if things go well, Abomination Vaults is getting some good buzz. I might even try that (with a new group) and on Foundry. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. :)
 

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