Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[ikos]

The monsters in the 5e Monster Manual may not be exciting but monster design has continued to improve. Books like Volo's Guide, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica all demonstrate an evolving design method.

The idea that official 5e monsters are unexciting is becoming a thing of the past - to keep trotting out this idea is disingenuous.

Makes perfect sense ... the guy who rarely posts who takes a middle road in an edition argument clearly must be dissembling.

 

[Campbell]

I personally do not find 5th Edition any easier to modify or change than any other roleplaying game. I expect every group to make any game their own, but the game gets no credit for our hard work.

For me personally things like transparent math and modular design make it far easier to make the game your own. When my group makes changes I want to have a fairly good idea what impact they are having and not deal with unforeseen consequences based on the way subsystems interact.

For something like monster design I much prefer something more result oriented than templates or adding class levels where I have no idea what impact it will have. I want to design a monster. Not jump through hoops.

When 5th Edition tells me to build the monster and then decide how tough it is with an eyeball test it is failing to give me the tools I want. Building monsters is an art, but I expect a good starting point.

I also think that a game's starting point really matters. I have several games that I enjoy running and playing. I have an abundance of choice. I am not going to contort a game to fit what I want when I can simply reach to my shelf and find something better suited. If a want a D&D like more focused on the narrative I will reach for Dungeon World. Not try to contort a more tactical game.

Fifth Edition is a good game. I plan to continue playing it in addition to Pathfinder 2. I probably will not run it.

It has strengths that Pathfinder 2 does not have. The opposite is also true. There is room for both.

Honestly this whole thread is giving me bad vibes. It feels like we are asking for the game to justify its existence instead of approaching it with curiosity. I really do not want to go through this again.

I will be happy to clarify what I like about the game and have nuanced discussions about differences, but I have zero interest in getting into an edition spat.

 

[darjr]

Those bad vibes are a figment of your own creation. I have ZERO Ill will towards Paizo or WotC.

PF2 sales rank numbers are killer and other RPG companies would be celebrating in the streets with those numbers.

We do not deserve your animosity and I’d wish you’d drop it.

 

[Campbell]

Those bad vibes are a figment of your own creation. I have ZERO Ill will towards Paizo or WotC.

PF2 sales rank numbers are killer and other RPG companies would be celebrating in the streets with those numbers.

We do not deserve your animosity and I’d wish you’d drop it.

I have no animosity. Some of the comments felt like cheerleading for the game to fail to me. That's all. If that was not the intention I apologize. This kind of stuff is pretty easy to misread.

 

[darjr]

Roger that, and the same.

 

[Campbell]

I should clarify what I mean when I say higher level monsters feel scary in Pathfinder 2. I am not talking about features of their individual designs. I also do not mean 5th Edition monsters cannot actually be scary or have abilities that feel scary in play.

Fighting higher level monsters feels desperate because of features of the system. The tight math, scaling, and critical success and failure mechanics all work together so that the fight feels desperate independent of the individual monster design. Higher level monsters are much harder to affect, hit you more often, critically succeed more often, and criticals hurt like a lot. You really have to work together to take one down.

The inverse is true of lower level monsters. The same mechanics mean your spells and attacks are much more effective. You critically succeed more often. They critically fail their saves more often. Orcs start tough, but eventually you will carve through them like butter.

Independent of individual monster design the mechanics embed level directly into the narrative of the game.

 

[darjr]

That’s..... the very first time I’ve heard it described like that.

Interesting. What high level scenarios are out there so someone might give this a swing?

 

[darjr]

But, could you start a new thread?

 

[Parmandur]

I have no animosity towards the game, though it doesn't interest me for playing. My interest is in the state of the hobby as a business, which overall does have an effect on us all indirectly over time.

 

[dave2008]

I should clarify what I mean when I say higher level monsters feel scary in Pathfinder 2. I am not talking about features of their individual designs. I also do not mean 5th Edition monsters cannot actually be scary or have abilities that feel scary in play.

Fighting higher level monsters feels desperate because of features of the system. The tight math, scaling, and critical success and failure mechanics all work together so that the fight feels desperate independent of the individual monster design. Higher level monsters are much harder to affect, hit you more often, critically succeed more often, and criticals hurt like a lot. You really have to work together to take one down.

The inverse is true of lower level monsters. The same mechanics mean your spells and attacks are much more effective. You critically succeed more often. They critically fail their saves more often. Orcs start tough, but eventually you will carve through them like butter.

Independent of individual monster design the mechanics embed level directly into the narrative of the game.

Thanks for the clarification. Personally I am not sure if that is a feature or a flaw. As a DM the big math jump of 4e (which had a similar effect, but, IMO, was more elegant with monster roles) always bothered me. But how critical success/failure is built into that system in PF2e is interesting (though it really exacerbates my issue I would think). I don't think I will run a PF2e game, but I am thinking of trying to find a game to play. I did a quick search and their are two stores in my area that feature weekly PF games, just couldn't tell if they are playing PF2e or not. I think I will give them call this weekend.

Personally, when I look at the rules the game looks very tedious to me; but I want to try it and see how it plays.