Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[The-Magic-Sword]

I will say Roll20 and Amazon really might not be reliable metrics for this, over on the sub no one mentions roll20 when we're asked for VTT recommendations, and similarly a lot of people are probably buying direct from Paizo depending on Amazon price shenanigans, the demand for pdfs, and such. I get that they seem like the reliable metrics on the face of it, but Roll20 took hits from that whole controversy, Paizo's market is probably doing a little more research on which VTT they're using too since the product is aimed a little more at power users while still being accessible.

Meanwhile the people who are using this to spin their 'man, if paizo had just designed the game completely differently they wouldn't be failing' thing are bewildering, I think it would have nose dived had they gone in the direction of making it more like 5e, since it wouldn't offer the things it does now. Literally everyone who converts talks about the differences as being the motivator, there would be no reason to switch if it weren't the case.

Like, Look at this person, or this one, and then this. This is an almost daily thing-- most of the playerbase is from 5e, and self describes their reason for switching as being options, difficulty challenging their players, and even support for character optimization.

If anything I would use the growth of the subreddit to better capture the growth of interest in the system. Their growth has only really accelerated, which to me is pretty convincing evidence that the game as a whole is growing pretty aggressively-- more users are looking for resources and discussion on the game, regardless of what they're playing on, or where they're buying their books. Even though thats only a fraction of the market, I think it probably speaks to the greater volume of players that they represent a fraction of.

I'd actually argue the drop in Amazon sales might have more to do with that massive humble bundle deal they did a little while back, it literally cleaned out their entire stock of Core Rulebooks, it might have front loaded a lot of the interest and channeled it away from Amazon.

 

[Mistwell]

and similarly a lot of people are probably buying direct from Paizo depending on Amazon price shenanigans, the demand for pdfs, and such.

I won't speak to Roll20, but I don't understand the logic here. Ignore Covid, and just look at Amazon sales numbers pre-Covid. Amazon has not had any "price shenanigans" for 2e which they didn't also do with 1e. But both have fairly consistent trend lines. Of course it blips up and down with price changes, but there is an overall clear trend over periods of time.

And we can see that trend - it was ranking in the 1000-2000 range for many many years on Amazon for 1e despite the price changes and despite the humble bundles and such Paizo did over those years.

And now it's ranking over 3000 consistently, even prior to Covid, despite price changes and humble bundles and such.

That's meaningful data. It cannot just be hand waived away easily. Can this really have been the expectation for sales that Paizo had, that they would lose that large a percentage of their Amazon sales in the edition change with no announcement about a change in marketing strategy or anything like that indicating this was an intentional thing?

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I won't speak to Roll20, but I don't understand the logic here. Ignore Covid, and just look at Amazon sales numbers pre-Covid. Amazon has not had any "price shenanigans" for 2e which they didn't also do with 1e. But both have fairly consistent trend lines. Of course it blips up and down with price changes, but there is an overall clear trend over periods of time.

And we can see that trend - it was ranking in the 1000-2000 range for many many years on Amazon for 1e despite the price changes and despite the humble bundles and such Paizo did over those years.

And now it's ranking over 3000 consistently, even prior to Covid, despite price changes and humble bundles and such.

That's meaningful data. It cannot just be hand waived away easily. Can this really have been the expectation for sales that Paizo had, that they would lose that large a percentage of their Amazon sales in the edition change with no announcement about a change in marketing strategy or anything like that indicating this was an intentional thing?

Personally? I think that they're playing a longer term strategy overall, and that they knew they were functionally resetting their player base to grow it over again with the new edition, 1e was a very particular situation they've mentioned knowing they wouldn't be able to recapture.

My evidence for something not being quite right with the amazon numbers as a metric, is the growth of the sub accelerating over the same period. I assume we're not just getting more people clicking subscribe without actually getting into the game at all. I do think people finally getting core books in that humble bundle was a major contributor, and probably a mass move to pdf following a general switch to online gaming.

 

[kayman]

Yeah, I also imported AoA into Roll20, and it was a lot of work, and still wasn't 100% right. Even worse than the work I had to do as GM was the extra work it put on my players - and that, to me, is what makes the experience unacceptable. Even after buying the rules modules, it has a substandard character creator and anemic compendium support.
So why I don't use Foundry....
First, I couldn't because I didn't have a computer that would run it. Now that I do, I could convert all my games, make my players learn a new system, etc, but we're already on Roll20, and it's working fine for what we do currently (which isn't PF2).
Second, I can access my game from any computer. If I'm on break at work, I can access my maps, characters, and make quick changes or look up information for my players. I don't have to be at my home computer at my home office. (This was a major problem when I lost everything in Fantasy Grounds when my dog destroyed my previous laptop.)
Third, the various modules you can add to Foundry can create a vastly different experience. This customized experience can make troubleshooting issues and learning the system a challenge, because everyone's game is different.
Fourth, there's not really an official marketplace for content. Most things on there to download are available purely as
an oversight by the companies, and if they do eventually get shut down (which has happened a few times already) GMs and their players will be out of luck. It's like the Limewire of VTTs. I'm not even sure the modules are a legal service.
Fifth, on Foundry I'm responsible for hosting or setting up a hosting client, so I'm still paying subscription costs and at the mercy of clogged servers.
Sixth, I'm good at putting in maps on Roll20. Like I can do it in a matter of minutes. I have watched numerous tutorials on Foundry, and it seems much more complex.
Seventh, I don't need features like animated battlemaps, ambient sound effects. I'd prefer just to have officially licensed modules and compendium content.
Eighth, Roll20 has a larger install base. If I'm going to find a game to play, join at a convention, or host new players, it's more likely they'll have access to Roll20. And if not, it's more accessible with many tutorials on YouTube. The basic "how to get started as a player with Foundry" is over 20 minutes.
Ninth, the sunk cost fallacy is kind of true. I've got lots of purchased material on Roll20 that I would need to buy again, custom imported maps and tokens, system knowledge, etc. To learn all that again, repurchase everything, and ask my players to do the same is something I'm not willing to do.

I understand your points but for me it is not a choice at all .... as i said , i already bought all pf2 pdf on paizo website ... the fact that i have to buy again in roll20 is unbelievable ...as for the maps , i have a diferent perpective than you , i use all ... and by the way the only reason that i still have my roll20 acount active is to buy Gabriel Pickard tiles...

 

[Retreater]

I understand your points but for me it is not a choice at all .... as i said , i already bought all pf2 pdf on paizo website ... the fact that i have to buy again in roll20 is unbelievable

If you link your Paizo and Roll20 accounts, you get a code for the PDF from Paizo when you purchase the content from Roll20. This is how I got PDFs of the Core Rulebook, APG, and Bestiary. So I'm not buying twice either, unless I want to buy the book in print (which you'd have to do regardless of the VTT you use).
The Foundry PDF importer could be handy for things like Society modules that aren't regularly available on Roll20. However, I don't think there's a compendium feature on Foundry to drag and drop feats, spells, etc, so that could be a strike against.

 

[Aldarc]

IMO they should have ditched Golarion (aka "Like your favorite D&D settings...but different!") and made a game with a steampunk, dieselpunk, sci fi, or post-apocalyptic setting. There's more growth potential in developing your own product identity than continually trying to eat somebody else's scraps.

This is where your post went completely off the rails for me, especially considering the relative popularity of Golarion as a setting. It's one of the most widely recognized unofficial settings set in a "D&D game."

 

[fearsomepirate]

This is where your post went completely off the rails for me, especially considering the relative popularity of Golarion as a setting. It's one of the most widely recognized unofficial settings set in a "D&D game."

The only way to stop selling like a D&D clone is to stop presenting as one. Golarion is, like the Pathfinder RPG itself, a D&D knock-off. This intrinsically limits Paizo's audience.

 

[Aldarc]

The only way to stop selling like a D&D clone is to stop presenting as one. Golarion is, like the Pathfinder RPG itself, a D&D knock-off. This intrinsically limits Paizo's audience.

Then you are not asking for Paizo to detach itself just from Golarion but also from everything that Paizo built as part of its brand. They may as well not be Paizo at that point. How is that strategy meant to solve anything for Paizo?

"Okay. Pepsi. The only way for you to compete against Coca Cola is to stop calling yourself 'Pepsi,' radically change your ingredients, and actually just stop being cola entirely."

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Also, its not like non-DND clones are selling better than PF2e anyway?

 

[kayman]

If you link your Paizo and Roll20 accounts, you get a code for the PDF from Paizo when you purchase the content from Roll20. This is how I got PDFs of the Core Rulebook, APG, and Bestiary. So I'm not buying twice either, unless I want to buy the book in print (which you'd have to do regardless of the VTT you use).
The Foundry PDF importer could be handy for things like Society modules that aren't regularly available on Roll20. However, I don't think there's a compendium feature on Foundry to drag and drop feats, spells, etc, so that could be a strike against.

I think you only get a discount, if you link your account ... maybe i am wrong...

... You can drag everything... you have acces to all bestiaries , all the rules , feats , spells you can create you own itens ,journals , etc.... everything that exist in the archives of nethys you can drag to you pc and you can import you character direct from the pathbuilder 2e...