Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[darjr]

Thanks for the citations. Getting the PDF numbers has been difficult and this is much better.

and for what it’s worth, apologies for that, under pressure here too.

 

[gss000]

I wouldn’t say that Pf2 is shrinking based on the Amazon numbers and Roll20, but there’s no way I’d say it’s growing right now. It has an engaged fan base (me included). That’s a start.

If they want more players then Paizo needs a hook to reach the category of 5e players open to something new.

I also don't think you can definitively make a call from those numbers about the total number of players. However, I do think the Amazon numbers tell you how the "casual" players are picking up the game. To me, this person is someone who wants to try the game but doesn't want to spend a lot of money; may not have or even know about a Friendly Local Gaming Store; saw the game somewhere and wants to see more without a big investment; etc. The declining numbers say to me that this crowd in general is not picking up the game. That's not too surprising given the complexity of PF2 vs 5e and it's prominence.

While I don't think message boards are of statistical signfigance, I don't think thats data we have in the first place. I'd argue its likely the best data we have.

I may be misunderstanding your point here, but I think they are a factor that can help explain what we see. When I look at survey data, I look at the comments to help give other answers context. Here, the number of comments and frequency tell me how energetic the crowd is. If I wanted to read what people say, that tells me narratives people hold about the game, which is a different question than what we've all been discussing.

The Amazon sales rank depends specifically on sales through Amazon when Amazon most definetly doesnt carry the pdfs, which probably have massive volume, and doesnt reflect subscriber number, or the inventory-clearing sales surge from the humble bundle either.

Yes, all that is true, which is why I don't use Amazon numbers to say anything about the overall health of Paizo. We can't say anything regarding PDF sales or volume unless Paizo releases numbers. I haven't seen any disclosures like Hasbro makes about D&D sales in 2020. I don't think the company has to like Hasbro does, but until I hear or see a stat about growth there, I can't tell anything about it. Without an official statement of some kind, I will only assume subscriptions are staying the same. Someone please educate me if there has been news on this that is recent.

Meanwhile roll 20 while strong for other game systems is recommended against heavily in the Pathfinder community, which from an information sciences perspective means Google searches looking (functionally) for consumer review material are turning up the Foundry recommendation.

Yup, which is why I don't see the declining numbers in and of themselves as a bad thing. It's more a reflection on Roll20 and it's lack of support. Based on other comments, the lack of support is probably not a big thing, either.

Similarly, online discussion has changed dramatically over the last few years as Discord has come to be a center for that kind of engagement, rather than traditional forums.

That is a good point, but that would affect all game systems, too. That is why I look at the established forums I used to go to that are still around for a cursory examination, and I don't see a lot of PF2 chatter.

Its also one of a few things giving us information that things are going well, as Paizo is still hiring, and the release schedule shows no signs of slowing down beyond them having gotten the core of the game out in a crunch and transitioning to the pace theyve been talking about since day one.

I don't want to talk too much about items involving the economic health of Paizo because that involves other areas that aren't relevant to PF2's reception and uptake, even if it's the flagship product. Hiring is good news overall, true. Knowing a little about publications, I put less weight into the release pace. That's dictated months and months in advance. It's good they haven't changed it, but I don't see that as changing too much unless things went really poorly, which there's absolutely no sign of.

 

[darjr]

Latest Numbers for PF2 are pretty steady. In fact it's been higher, above 5,000 or so. I think that means it's a steady seller and keeping it's 2nd highest selling RPG position. Probably at least until something industry shaking happens. I'd be thrilled if I were Paizo.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Latest Numbers for PF2 are pretty steady. In fact it's been higher, above 5,000 or so. I think that means it's a steady seller and keeping it's 2nd highest selling RPG position. Probably at least until something industry shaking happens. I'd be thrilled if I were Paizo.

View attachment 137838

Neat

 

[Porridge]

Amazon seems to have moved the PF2 core rulebook from the "books" main category into the "toys & games" main category. Likewise, the websites tracking Amazon rankings I've been using now list the PF2 book in the "toys & games" category. I'm not sure when this happened, but I suspect it was around June 20th (when its ranking suddenly shifted from one plateau to another).

Very frustrating, since this completely undermines attempts to compare its current sales rank to its earlier sales rank. (It also undermines comparisons to 5e PHB sales, since Amazon still puts the 5e PHB in the "books" category.)

EDIT: This seems to be part of a broader shift, since all of the PF2 and Starfinder books I checked seem to have been moved into the "toys & games" category. The PF1 paperbacks I checked are still in the "books" category, however, as are all the 5e books I checked.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Amazon seems to have moved the PF2 core rulebook from the "books" main category into the "toys & games" main category. Likewise, the websites tracking Amazon rankings I've been using now lists the PF2 book in the toys & games category. I'm not sure when this happened, but I suspect it was around June 20th (when it's ranking suddenly shifted from one plateau to another).

Very frustrating, since this completely undermines attempts to compare its current sales rank to its earlier sales rank. (It also undermines comparisons to 5e PHB sales, since Amazon still puts the 5e PHB in the "books" category.)

Huh, I wonder how that happened

 

[teitan]

Huh, I wonder how that happened

It will appear in multiple categories based on the product description. Amazon sales ranks are basically useless though for judging Pathfinder. Interesting by useless.

 

[darjr]

The PHB 5e has been in the top 100 of all books for the past week or so. Again.

PF2e Core stabilized for a good long while too.

 

[Porridge]

Amazon seems to have moved the PF2 core rulebook from the "books" main category into the "toys & games" main category. Likewise, the websites tracking Amazon rankings I've been using now list the PF2 book in the "toys & games" category. I'm not sure when this happened, but I suspect it was around June 20th (when its ranking suddenly shifted from one plateau to another).

Very frustrating, since this completely undermines attempts to compare its current sales rank to its earlier sales rank. (It also undermines comparisons to 5e PHB sales, since Amazon still puts the 5e PHB in the "books" category.)

EDIT: This seems to be part of a broader shift, since all of the PF2 and Starfinder books I checked seem to have been moved into the "toys & games" category. The PF1 paperbacks I checked are still in the "books" category, however, as are all the 5e books I checked.

A brief follow-up: In theory, it's not completely hopeless to make such comparisons. One can use Amazon sales estimators for both categories, and then use those to work out what the "toys & games" rank would correspond to if the product were put back into the "books" category. But the Amazon sales estimators I've found are frustratingly inconsistent.

For example, the PF2 Core books is currently #9,932 in "toys & games". According to this this site that's about 641 sales/month. According to the same site 641 sales/month in the "books" category corresponds to a ranking of #680.

By contrast, according to this site, a ranking of #9,932 in "toys & games" corresponds to about 35-38 sales/day. According to the same site 35-38 sales/day in the "books" category corresponds to a ranking of #15(!), which would be substantially better than the 5e PHB(!!!).

The latter number is crazy. And even the first number seems too high. (A rank of #680 would put current PF2 sales on a par with what they were in mid August 2019, a couple weeks after PF2 had been released.)

Now, it's plausible that PF2 sales (like 5e sales) have picked up now that the pandemic is easing up and the number of face-to-face games is increasing. But it's hard to get a tangible feel for how much sales have picked up when the means of comparing different categories are so crude.

 

[darjr]

I dint think that’ll work. The sales rank being in the same group was KEY to it being a good comparison. Outside of that it’s not that useful.

Anyone here sell on Amazon? Is there anyway to influence what rank they show on the site?