Relics for Sale?

[Palcadon]

I thought someone put me up on ebay

had me going for a minute.

Nice read though.




Palc

 

[herald]

Anyone care to guess how long untill this thread gets locked down?

 

[Sinklar]

Re: Re: Relics for Sale?

First of all, I'm not a troll. If I came across too harsh, my apologies. But I honestly don't understand why EVERYONE would think this thread needs to be locked. Read on and maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

Storm Raven, nothing saddens more than someone who takes a frustrated rant out of context and, for lack of anything better to do, does nothing more than talk trash. I'm simply asking for different points of view and venting my frustrations with the game to the only people who might understand.

Unfortunately, you seemed to have missed the point of my post. So, instead of responding in kind, I will reply to what I assume are the more serious points in your posts amid all of the useless flamage.

Good way to start a post, just implicitly trash the people who like the game as a "bunch of munchkin geeks". Good way to get started. [/B]

Thank you. I pride myself on my ability to get people's attention. However, I do not just like the game...I LOVE IT. It was my love of the game that prompted me to enter these forums and see if anyone else had ever had thoughts similar to mine.

A magic item that costs 180,000 gp. What kind of munchkin game are you running if you have lots of PCs who aren't really high level with that much cash to spare? PCs shouldn't have that kind of cash until they are in the late teens in terms of level, and even then that single item would represent the bulk of their wealth. Why is this a problem?

I never mentioned what level of a campaign I was running. How did you get anything of that nature from what I posted? I agree completely that PCs should not have that kind of cash until they are high levels, but that's not the issue. My whole point was what effect such items have on a player's ability to role-play. As I stated earlier: it is simply my opinion that once you introduce items into a game that can raise 3 stats by +6, the game is no longer about who has the best character; it starts to become who has the best stuff?

And yet you can believe that magic can spontaneously produce balls of fire, bolts of lightning, return you from the dead, give animals and trees sentience, allow you to vanish from one place and reappear hundreds of miles away, animate dead corpses, transform you into an undying undead creature, or any number of other things. But somehow, making someone smarter is beyond the believability of magic? You aren't making sense.

It was never a question of whether or not it's possible. Of course, in a world with magic anything is POSSIBLE. I'm not trying to debate if such items could or would exist in such a world. My questions / rant simply pertained to how it affects the roleplaying factors of game play.

Well, first, I question whether you have actually read about the magic items in question, since the maximum the rules allow for is a +6 enhancement item, not +8.

Heh. In all honesty, I have never let the "RULES" tell me what I can and can't do in a campaign world. If, as the DM, I wanted to make a +12 Hackmaster in order for my group's Paladin to defeat the Demon Prince of the Undead, I'm not going to let the holy rules stop me. Even the DMG states that the book is no more than a Guide. I don't think anyone who DMs in our group would give out such insane items, but I just wanted to vent about the fact that the 3E 'rules' seem to think they are okay.

And to clarify one thing: one of the primary reasons for this line of thought was started when I bought 'Enemies & Allies'. An excellent book for the most part, but then you get to the part at the end where it shows the 'standard' equipment for the Iconic characters. The Iconic characters in 'Enemies & Allies' run around with some pretty amazing stuff. It just kind of shocked me that some would consider that amount of magical boosting on a character fun to role-play. It's not "wrong", it's just a difference of style.

And second, perhaps you could give the items some flavor text to make them "cool counding"? Girdles of Storm Giant Strength would be out of place in my campaign, since I don't have any of the standard giants, so that flavor text would have to be changed for me. Instead, I can just add the flavor text that seems right for my game. Gosh, what a hardship it is to add flavor text.

I find it amusing, as I'm sure do most of the people who know me, that anyone could question my ability to do 'flavor text'. Say all you want in this area, as I can assure you, you are dead wrong. But, seeing as how you assume I am just trolling around instead of actually looking for some real replies, I'll write this one off as you just not knowing me.

Oh, by the way, the Strength enhancing items are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Lesser Belts of Giant Strength, and Greater Belts of Giant Strength. Once again, I question whether you have actually read the DMG on this, since you rant about the "Belts of Str+ whatever" without noticing that the "generic" name you talk about doesn't exist in the DMG.

LOL! And now you are suggesting I limit such items to what is in the DMG? Dude, that's rich! Please. If a player wants to make a Ring of Dex +2 or an Earring of Deflection WHO CARES?!

I'm just going to chalk you up as either a troll, or a moron, or both.

And I thank you for offering your opinion, inflamed as it is.

 

[sword-dancer]

Heh-heh. Sorry if I ruffled your, or any other's, feathers. I've played in that system and it is, indeed a lot of FUN. Maybe I've been in the wrong groups, but it just never lent itself very well to role-playing in my eyes. I will agree, however, that for source material, Rifts is hard to match.

For the Quality of Material and books Palladium is a good standard.
Your argument is what many german players said A/D&D.
But Rifts MAgic i IMPOV more balanced than ad&d magic

 

[Eggman]

As a player in Sinklar's group, you may think I am biased towards him. However, and we will both be the first to say, we don't always see eye to eye. That being said, he is 100% correct in this instance. Maybe changing your strength or dexterity by one or two points won't make a difference, but change it by more than that and you are definitly going to be off balance. Geez, it takes four character level just to change one of your ability by one point, that represents time spent working on this one ability, yet it has been suggested that changing you physical abilities is not going to affect you very much. I am a very physical person, and I tell you if my STR or DEX changed by the slightest, I would be off kilter for a while. Ever been sick? You feel all weak and wobbly right? This is your STR, DEX, and CON being temp reduced. Well the same thing would happen to you if you had a sudden gain in these. Now those are just the physical ones. If you start getting into the mental abilities you open a whole new can of worms. I would be willing to bet that if you a great increase in brain activity that +4 or +6 would give you, that you would be temporaraily insane. Now once you have gotten used to it, take it away, yep here comes the men in the little white shirts to take you away. All Sinklar is saying is, use some commen sense with the magic items. The books that all increase abilities make the reader work towards their goal, this to me is common sense.

 

[Sinklar]

Hmmm...

Egg's right: we fight a lot.

But, he has brought up a few things that never really crossed my mind...but go hand in hand with my thoughts on the subject, especially on the intelligence issue.

Magic or not, even if your effective INT is raised by 2,4 or 6 points, I would think it should take a while (few weeks/months?) for the character to fully utilize such a massive increase in brainpower. Or should the magical nature of the enhancement delete that? In my opinion, there should be some sort of adjustment period.

Tysr made a comment about being able to adjust rather quickly to boosts in STR or DEX, which I could see for the most part. But what about the other statistics? What would be a good way for a character to 'develop' his/her newfound power?

 

[drnuncheon]

So what you're suggesting is that being made more dextrous would make you clumsier?

Uh...right.



Look, it's magic. The magic not only makes you stronger, it also gives you the ability to control your new strength. It not only makes you more coordinated, but makes it so that you are used to the coordination. Hey, magic can translate from a completely unknown language into something you understand, why couldn't it translate the kinesthetic feedback of your body into something you could manage?

I could see a cursed version of a Belt of Giant Strength that reduced your dex, but why on earth should that be the default?


As for the 'adjustment period', that would basically rob the stat-boosting spells of all their utility.

Sinklar also says:
"My whole point was what effect such items have on a player's ability to role-play. As I stated earlier: it is simply my opinion that once you introduce items into a game that can raise 3 stats by +6, the game is no longer about who has the best character; it starts to become who has the best stuff?"

I think his point was that by the time it becomes an issue, the characters already have enough personal power and ability that the stat boost is much smaller than you would think. When you're at a low level, +6 to even one stat is a huge deal - it could double your attack bonuses, for example. When you're at 20th level, a +3 to hit is going to be pretty minor when compared to the +30 or more that you get from other sources (BAB, feats, base str, etc).

Don't get me wrong, it's still a great item - but it's nowhere near as valuable as it would be for a character half that level.

J

 

[Psychotic Dreamer]

Are you suggesting that when a character gets a stat boosting item they should effectivly be out of the game for weeks to months in game time?

Since Bull's Strength can increase someones Str by up to 5 points does that mean this spell should be useless since it would increase there Strength by a large amount?

Personally when I am playing heroic fantasy I want it to be as heroic as possible and not have to worry about the Int increasing magic item driving my character nuts or not being usable for several months. Personally I think magic removes the learning curve when it comes to stat increases of that sort.

Just my random thoughts on the subject.

 

[Eggman]

We are not saying that being more dexterous would make you clumsy. What we are saying is, boosting your dexterity makes you a little quicker on your feet right? Up till the point you add the magic item, you have been used to timing your swings to your opponents attacks, you know, timing your swing to hit just as he finishs his swing. But now all of sudden you are just a touch faster, thus moving just a little to quickly to take advantage of an opening in combat. Your mind gets used to the way your body works, change how your body works to quickly and voila, mind and body are out of sinc. Now after a little while your mind and body will become used to each other again. Thats is what the magical tomes that increase abilities do, they make your mind and body work together to increase an ability. Now slap on some bracers, your mind can't translate that they help your body lift more, or hit harder, or mover faster, not until after the first time you misjudge your strength in an arm wrestling contest, or dodge an opponent a little toofast, right into his blade.

 

[Sinklar]

Look, it's magic. The magic not only makes you stronger, it also gives you the ability to control your new strength. It not only makes you more coordinated, but makes it so that you are used to the coordination. Hey, magic can translate from a completely unknown language into something you understand, why couldn't it translate the kinesthetic feedback of your body into something you could manage?

I can totally see your point of view, especially as it relates to the spells that temp boost your stats, and it's not completely wrong. In fact, that gives me something to think about.

But, if you read R.A. Salvatore he goes into this as well. Drizzt gets a hold of bracers of dexterity/speed (or something like that) that made his attacks faster, which completely messed up his fighting style. He found himself relying on the item and was nearly bested because of it. He ended up moving them to his ankles to increase his foot movement, which while important for fighting, is not as critical as every precise movement of your swords. Obviously the item worked differently than it does in D&D by affecting the body parts it touches, but the idea is the same as what I've described.

This is one of the best and most memorable examples. It certianly helped form my current opinion.