Relics for Sale?

[Sinklar]

Are you suggesting that when a character gets a stat boosting item they should effectivly be out of the game for weeks to months in game time?

Since Bull's Strength can increase someones Str by up to 5 points does that mean this spell should be useless since it would increase there Strength by a large amount?

Personally when I am playing heroic fantasy I want it to be as heroic as possible and not have to worry about the Int increasing magic item driving my character nuts or not being usable for several months. Personally I think magic removes the learning curve when it comes to stat increases of that sort.

Just my random thoughts on the subject.

LOL! Yeah, this is something that, strangely enough, I didn't take into consideration. I've been so focused on how an item might give you a semi-permanent effect, that I completely overlooked things like "Bull's Strength" and "Cat's Grace".

Of course, you can just say "The magic makes it possible." I guess it's just a matter of how it's presented to the character by the DM. Onetime, in AD&D, my character gained a point of INT because he walked through a portal and spent a year being tutored by a dying arch mage. When he went back through the mirror, less than a second had passed in the 'real world'.

Maybe the answer for my group is to strike a balance here. As in:

"Only one stat boosting item may ever be used. Once worn, it cannot be removed. It can be 'upgraded' over time to a max of +6."

That would also force a player to make a role-playing decision as to what is the one thing he values most about his character.

As for temp spell boosts...*sigh* I guess the 'instant' magic makes it 'instantly possible'. Ugh! Thanks for pointing that out. Now I have something else to think about!

 

[Tsyr]

I don't see how you think that these items effect roleplay in the slightest.

Scratch that.

I don't even see how that argument was given birth.

Roleplaying has nothing to do with what items you have, or what race you are, or anything. Roleplaying is a concept. Roleplaying is about realisticly portraying how a character with the attitude you envision would react, GIVEN his race, GIVEN the fact he obtained the items, etc. If you cannot roleplay a fighter who has been granted inhuman strength, then I say to you, you aren't as good of a roleplayer as you think you are.

And as for R.A.Salvatore... I've read salvatore. And while he occasionaly writes memorable things, he is not the best writer in terms of either adherance to the DnD rules (Which he doesn't, in the slightest), or technical acuracey of such things as sword fighting (Which he seems to know nothing about). But for the record, the bracers Drizzt got increased speed, not dexterity. And the problem was, Drizzt's arms already moved as fast as his brain was able to deal with.

However, Drizzt actualy gave up. He used them for a week or so, then gave up and said they wouldn't work for him. He never really tried to adapt. Drizzt, to be blunt, is a whiner.

As much as I am loathe to, I find myself in agreement with Stormraven. You start this arguement in an inflamitory fashion, you respond to only select arguements, and when told you have the rules wrong -the very rules you are complaining about- you laugh and say you don't even care about the rules. If you don't care about the rules -which, I say again, you are saying are prone to munchkinism- then what is the problem? Ignore the rules as you see fit.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Relics for Sale?

Storm Raven, nothing saddens more than someone who takes a frustrated rant out of context and, for lack of anything better to do, does nothing more than talk trash. I'm simply asking for different points of view and venting my frustrations with the game to the only people who might understand.

Out of context? You rant about how stat enhancing items are too "unbelieveable" and accuse people responding to exactly that point in your post as taking it "out of context"? Now you are starting to sound slightly insane.

Thank you. I pride myself on my ability to get people's attention. However, I do not just like the game...I LOVE IT. It was my love of the game that prompted me to enter these forums and see if anyone else had ever had thoughts similar to mine.

Then perhaps you would do better to start you posts with something other than implictly calling the people who play the game "happy-ass munchkins". You would get better responses.

I never mentioned what level of a campaign I was running. How did you get anything of that nature from what I posted? I agree completely that PCs should not have that kind of cash until they are high levels, but that's not the issue. My whole point was what effect such items have on a player's ability to role-play. As I stated earlier: it is simply my opinion that once you introduce items into a game that can raise 3 stats by +6, the game is no longer about who has the best character; it starts to become who has the best stuff?

Really? I've never seen it become "who has the best stuff" unless the DM makes it so. The role-playing or lack thereof is the responsibility of the players and the DM, not the system. If everyone is fixated with how much stuff they have, it is you who are the problem, not the game system.

And, as has been pointed out before, those stat enhancing items are not particularly powerful when you get to the point where you can afford them (or reasonably expect to acquire them as treasure). You need to put things in context when evaluating them, which you clearly have not.

It was never a question of whether or not it's possible. Of course, in a world with magic anything is POSSIBLE. I'm not trying to debate if such items could or would exist in such a world. My questions/rant simply pertained to how it affects the roleplaying factors of game play.

And since it has no more effect on game play than the existence of +5 longswords and wands of lightning, that makes you rant somewhat pointless then.

Heh. In all honesty, I have never let the "RULES" tell me what I can and can't do in a campaign world. If, as the DM, I wanted to make a +12 Hackmaster in order for my group's Paladin to defeat the Demon Prince of the Undead, I'm not going to let the holy rules stop me. Even the DMG states that the book is no more than a Guide. I don't think anyone who DMs in our group would give out such insane items, but I just wanted to vent about the fact that the 3E 'rules' seem to think they are okay.

Except, of course, that the 3e rules don't think that +8 stat enhancing items are okay. If you are going to rant about the rules getting in the way of roleplaying, then get the rules correct first. Otherwise you look like an imbecile.

It is very simple really: when complaining about the rules, get the rules right.

I find it amusing, as I'm sure do most of the people who know me, that anyone could question my ability to do 'flavor text'. Say all you want in this area, as I can assure you, you are dead wrong. But, seeing as how you assume I am just trolling around instead of actually looking for some real replies, I'll write this one off as you just not knowing me.

I find it amusing, as I am sure do most people who don't know you, that you assumed we could read your mind. You see, all we have to go on is your posts, your rant. And in your rant you complained about how there wasn't any flavor text in the DMG that gave the items "cool sounding" names. The fact that you complain about this indicates that you are too dim to add such text yourself, otherwise your wouldn't be ranting about the subject.

LOL! And now you are suggesting I limit such items to what is in the DMG? Dude, that's rich! Please. If a player wants to make a Ring of Dex +2 or an Earring of Deflection WHO CARES?!

Now you are just being a moron. Look, you complained that there were no "cool sounding" names in the DMG, and that everything was just a "Belt of Str+ whatever". You were blatantly incorrect on this score, which I pointed out.

I didn't suggest you limit yourself to the items found in the DMG, but if you are going to complain about what is in the rules you need to stick to the rules. Complaining about homebrewed items being oo powerful is just silly, since you are the one responsible for those items in the first place. Don't try to shuffle off blame for problems those cause on the rules.

I think I'll go with the moron assessment. You don't seem clever enough to be trolling.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Heh. In all honesty, I have never let the "RULES" tell me what I can and can't do in a campaign world.

OK, but your rant began with you saying that WotC's 3e rules promote munchkinism. If you don't play by the rules, then who is promoting it?

I also enjoy the way 3e makes magical items relatively easy for the DM (and I specifically am not talking about players or PCs here) to create for his or her campaign. I'd rather the space for flavor text be minimized, so more crunchy stuff can be in there - I'll provide the fluff text.

I understand the fact that you're ranting, but the INT 8 farmer example is, perhaps, far too exaggerated. He's most likely a Commoner, which means that 1000gp is gonna be more profit than he'll make in several years. Wasting it all to get rid of rabbits seems, hmmm, uh, wasteful. Even someone with 8 INT would likley know enough to realize that. I'd say his WIS score must be even higher for him to be able to set aside that much money, making the possibility of him using it to buy something that may well be a form of snake oil unlikely. Normally I like hyperbole - use it all the time myself - but a more cogent, realistic (in the context of the game, that is) example would have helped your cause much more, especially so near to the beginning of your rant.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Re: Re: Relics for Sale?

LOL! And now you are suggesting I limit such items to what is in the DMG? Dude, that's rich! Please. If a player wants to make a Ring of Dex +2 or an Earring of Deflection WHO CARES?!

Apparently, you do. Since the whole point of your rant was that the rules in this regard are unbalanced, it is easy to assume that something from outside the rules would be even more likely to be unbalancing. It seems like you're arguing on both sides.

 

[daTim]

Role playing items?

If somebody found a belt of giants stregnth, or a headband of intelect of a high value like +4 it could be quite a changing experience. When putting on such a powerful belt, a wizard might feel compelled to melee because of his new found stregnth, or a fighter might think he was as strong as superman, but they would quickly learn their limitations. Putting on a headband might make you become ultra smart really quick, and would more than likely change your personality like in Flowers for Algernon, or the movie Phenomenan (sp?) Taking it off could prove equally devistating and cause you to become depressed at your lack of power all of a sudden. With the right players I suppose anything is possible.

 

[Sinklar]

*sigh*

My apologies for offending anyone. I had assumed that with 3,000+ members that I would get some varied responses, but nothing prepared me for the sheer vehemence of people like Storm Raven. Dude, what is your problem?? Jeez, I never personally attacked you, not even in my reply. I guess there's just no pleasing some people. I wonder if there is anything I could say to you at this point beyond, "I'm sorry. I have no point. You are right to flame me. I must go cry in shame now." that you would accept? From the tone of your two replies, I doubt it. Please, feel free to continue to impress us all with your extensive vocabulary of insults.

Tsyr: While I'm obviously not in complete agreement with you, I appreciate and acknowledge your comments. Lesson learned and I will remember it next time.

To everyone else: I have purposely avoided posting questions/comment/opinions on these boards for the fear of exactly what Storm Raven has done. Certian members of communities like this tend to pounce on anything that challenges thier pre-concieved notions of right and wrong. That's why I don't post on here too much...because of the danger of getting flamed for asking some of the questions that plague my group. On any given day, on a board with this many members, perhaps the response would have been different. Maybe I'll try again sometime.

These boards are supposed to be about sharing ideas and helping people. To those of you who actually took the time to reply to my post, even Wolfspider for pointing out my bad math, I really do thank you.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: *sigh*

My apologies for offending anyone. I had assumed that with 3,000+ members that I would get some varied responses, but nothing prepared me for the sheer vehemence of people like Storm Raven. Dude, what is your problem?? Jeez, I never personally attacked you, not even in my reply. I guess there's just no pleasing some people.

Okay, so you start up your initial post by implictly calling just about everyone here "happy-ass munchkins", proceed to complain about how some rules concerning magic items hinder role-playing, get those rules wrong, act like you were just misunderstood when the fact that you were blatantly wrong about the very elements of the game you are criticizing is raised, and talk about how you intentionally phrased your post in an inflammatory manner to "get a rise out of people", and yet you are surprised that you get stuck with unkind labels? That is why you get tagged as a troll or a dimwit.

Think things through first. Then post. It will help avoid this in the future.

I wonder if there is anything I could say to you at this point beyond, "I'm sorry. I have no point. You are right to flame me. I must go cry in shame now." that you would accept? From the tone of your two replies, I doubt it. Please, feel free to continue to impress us all with your extensive vocabulary of insults.

That would be a start. A good follow up would be to actually go back to the DMG, read the rules in it, and then talk about the rules. You appear not to have done this, and yet you rant about how the rules interfere with role playing. As you obviously don't know the rules, how do you know they interfere with role playing? Educated opinionstend to get much more respect than rants that talk about how people who use the rules in the DMG are "happy-ass munchkins" and then get those rules wrong.

These boards are supposed to be about sharing ideas and helping people. To those of you who actually took the time to reply to my post, even Wolfspider for pointing out my bad math, I really do thank you.

They are also about getting things right when you want to rant on a subject. Get it right next time, frame your question in a less inflammaroty manner and I am certain you will get much better responses.

 

[Darklone]

Well.

Just wanted to add a few things:

- Stat boosts are horribly powerful in gameplay. I played several groups with point buy systems and different dice roll systems for character creation and some items such as the mentioned Monks Belt in Sword&Fist do enhance a chars abilities a lot. But I never had players with sooo much cash

- I personally don't like mental stat boosts. The physical things (Bulls str, Cats gr and Endurance) are kinda ok. It's a transmutation after all. The body is changed and enhanced (kinda magical cyberware). Mental things... Well. My players usually learn to fear the sideeffects of a helm of intellect. This gives you another opportunity to bug and surprise your players, why complaining about it?

- About your flaming. All of you. Some things. First of all: I rant a lot and I hope I never offended someone REALLY. If I want to rant, I do it not to hurt anyones feelings but to channel my fury (reading too much fantasy stories, i could have said that better). If someone else rants, why do you care? Did he attack you? And if he did, why do you attack him? It's easy enough to point out the rules problems, shoot some cynical funny comments and smile.

This is a game after all. Life is hard enough.

Ok. Now you can start to shoot at me

 

[Zenon]

I take it that in claiming 3e's stat boosting items promote "munchkinism" that you've never seen a 1e PC with a 3 STR put on a girdle of Storm Giant Strength and get a STR of 30 out of it? (OMG, it a +27 stat boost!)

What about the old Gauntlets of Ogre power that gave you an automatic raise to 18(00)? (which if I recall correctly, is around the 3e equivalent of around a 22 STR)

As to your other comments, these boards can be harsh at times, but if you come in with a rant blazing, throwing insults left and right, don't expect to walk away with out getting a little fire in return....most people here are reasonable to you if you post reasonable questions.