Religions in D&D

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't think there's a lot of interest among most gamers. This isn't to say there isn't an interest among some gamers, but I doubt it's enough to be profitable.

Just what I was about to say. I'm sure that a few of us would love to have entire chapters in the core books devoted to religion -- just like there are gamers who love different facets of the game, like high-level play, particular settings, or particular race/class fluff. But at best, most of us would probably glaze over most of it. Some of us would probably call it 'Sitting on the John literature,' or even a waste of page space.

 

[Ydars]

Whereas nothing in these rules typicaly models either the processes of, or the outcomes of, religious commitment as experienced by the religious person. Hence religious commitment becomes essentially neutralised in play, while mechanistic, physicalistic explanation are foregrounded, either expressly in the rules, or by allusion (as we model luck, for instance, by the generation of random numbers through the rolling of dice - how does this take at all seriously notions of providence, divine fortune and the like?).

Hmm; I think you've hit the nail on the head here! Religion is always about magical powers but never specifically about devotion. Not only that but a lot of the D&D stuff is really just lists of deities; no idea about rituals, holy people associated with the religion, ties to any kind of creation myth nor any real grounding of that religion into the world. They all just feel like an expanded section on cleric domains to me. There is almost no discussion of belief at all.

I am trying to write a game at the moment where the amount you pray and your devotions increase your piety score; which then acts specifically to protect even peasants from hostile magic. The world the game is set in (Mundus) is very psuedo Christian on the surface, but I have actually written down how that church believes the world was created, where magic comes from, why God does not intervene and why prayer is important.

I know a lot of people just aren't interested in this kind of stuff; but I am convinced that this is because they have never seen it used properly to flavour the setting.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hmm; I think you've hit the nail on the head here! Religion is always about magical powers but never specifically about devotion. Not only that but a lot of the D&D stuff is really just lists of deities; no idea about rituals, holy people associated with the religion, ties to any kind of creation myth nor any real grounding of that religion into the world. They all just feel like an expanded section on cleric domains to me. There is almost no discussion of belief at all.

I agree. I think that it's because of a combination of lack of interest and not wanting to offend.

I am trying to write a game at the moment where the amount you pray and your devotions increase your piety score; which then acts specifically to protect even peasants from hostile magic. The world the game is set in (Mundus) is very psuedo Christian on the surface, but I have actually written down how that church believes the world was created, where magic comes from, why God does not intervene and why prayer is important.

I know a lot of people just aren't interested in this kind of stuff; but I am convinced that this is because they have never seen it used properly to flavour the setting.

This isn't D&D then. So...

What does piety cost, in game terms? In such a system, if I'm told that knocking on wood gives me saving throw bonuses, believe me I'm knocking on wood! There's no cost, except perhaps when I'm (Pathfinder has a couple of superstition feats that cover this. The real cost is the feat slot, but you should RP throwing salt over your shoulder. Although many won't due to lack of interest.)

Are PC clerics or other spellcasters common?

 

[pemerton]

I am trying to write a game at the moment where the amount you pray and your devotions increase your piety score

If you haven't seen the Faith rules in Burning Wheel, you might find them interesting.

 

[pemerton]

What does piety cost, in game terms? In such a system, if I'm told that knocking on wood gives me saving throw bonuses, believe me I'm knocking on wood!

Burning Wheel deals with this sort of issue - which in its system comes up not so much via Fate as via the Folklore skill - by giving players a mechanical incentive not to always use the maximum number of available bonuses: because (roughly speaking) the easier a roll, the less it counts towards advancement.

 

[Bluenose]

What does piety cost, in game terms? In such a system, if I'm told that knocking on wood gives me saving throw bonuses, believe me I'm knocking on wood! There's no cost, except perhaps when I'm (Pathfinder has a couple of superstition feats that cover this. The real cost is the feat slot, but you should RP throwing salt over your shoulder. Although many won't due to lack of interest.)

Piety costs behaviour. If you want to benefit from the blessings of your deity then you have to act a certain way. That might be done in several ways, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has suggested Burning Wheel as having some interesting rules, I'll suggest Pendragon and Heroquest are also worth a look at.

To use Heroquest, in the most recent game I played in where magic was a factor, my character was a worshipper of Humakt, who is a god of Death and Truth. If I wanted to use magic associated with Truth, then I had to do things that supported that and avoid things that opposed it. At one point I found out that my family was trying to win a court case and was distorting the truth to do so. That put my Truth affinity against my Family Relationship, and could have been rolled as a contest. I chose to tell the truth and that led to an increase in my Truth affinity (my truth magic was more effective) and a reduction in the Relationship (and less chance of getting their help if I wanted it). If I'd chosen to support my family, they might have been more willing to do things for me, but it would have meant my Truth magic would have been less effective. Telling the truth till it hurts, refusing to deceive people, stuffing worshippers of Eurmal in a sack and beating the sack with a stick - when those things matter, when there will be an impact on some other aspect of the character, when your commitment is in question, those are the times when piety costs something.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

"Piety costs behavior" is precisely the kind of thing I'm not interested in. I don't think you should balance mechanical aspects of the game with RP. This is precisely the problem that the paladin code of conduct runs into, and I think a key reason players aren't interested in religious characters.

 

[Bluenose]

These are mechanical aspects of the game. Brave is just as valid a thing to write on a character sheet as Swording People, and a Truth affinity is just as significant in determining how a character acts as you want it to be. If my PC behave in a way that accords with what is written on the character sheet, then they get mechanical benefits. If my PC doesn't act that way, then they will not get those benefits, and in some cases will get penalties.

 

[pemerton]

Piety costs behaviour. If you want to benefit from the blessings of your deity then you have to act a certain way.

"Piety costs behavior" is precisely the kind of thing I'm not interested in. I don't think you should balance mechanical aspects of the game with RP. This is precisely the problem that the paladin code of conduct runs into, and I think a key reason players aren't interested in religious characters.

I think it is a mistake to compare the sort of thing Bluenose is talking about to classic D&D paladin mechanics; or even to disadvantage mechanics in a points-buy game like GURPS.

In D&D "truth" or "bravery" is not a mechanical resource for a player to draw upon in playing his/her PC, whereas in HeroWars/Quest (and Pendragon?) it is: a player can use "truth", or "bravery" or similar abilities to augment checks, or even in the right circumstances for checks in themselves.

Another way to make "piety cost behaviour" is in the framing of contests - which is hard to do in a standard process simulation framework, but becomes easier in a more abstract, meta-gamey framework like a skill challenge. Because the difficulties and number of successes required for a skill challenge is set at the metagame level, the players do not get a mechanical disadvantage for choosing one pathway over another. But you can frame a situation in which the player can choose to honour or dishonour religious values, thereby obtaining different outcomes. Which can then feed into subsequent framing. For instance, a paladin who breaks his/her word to make an Intimidate check might still succeed in the skill challenge, but is no longer in a position to frame Diplomacy checks against those NPCs for future challenges (or, at least, the DC might move from the typical Medium to Hard).

 

[Bluenose]

I think it is a mistake to compare the sort of thing Bluenose is talking about to classic D&D paladin mechanics; or even to disadvantage mechanics in a points-buy game like GURPS.

In D&D "truth" or "bravery" is not a mechanical resource for a player to draw upon in playing his/her PC, whereas in HeroWars/Quest (and Pendragon?) it is: a player can use "truth", or "bravery" or similar abilities to augment checks, or even in the right circumstances for checks in themselves.

In Pendragon, Brave is a paired Trait with Cowardly. The likeliest time to use Traits on their own is when something "magical" happens, so a Brave check to resist a Fear spell, Piety to not freeze in place when the Holy Grail wanders past, etc. Traits aren't used as augments, though Passions can be, and also might apply in some situations where a Trait also could. HW/HQ abilities work a lot more like Passions.

Another way to make "piety cost behaviour" is in the framing of contests - which is hard to do in a standard process simulation framework, but becomes easier in a more abstract, meta-gamey framework like a skill challenge. Because the difficulties and number of successes required for a skill challenge is set at the metagame level, the players do not get a mechanical disadvantage for choosing one pathway over another. But you can frame a situation in which the player can choose to honour or dishonour religious values, thereby obtaining different outcomes. Which can then feed into subsequent framing. For instance, a paladin who breaks his/her word to make an Intimidate check might still succeed in the skill challenge, but is no longer in a position to frame Diplomacy checks against those NPCs for future challenges (or, at least, the DC might move from the typical Medium to Hard).

I am not sure that a skill challenge is inherently any more meta-gamey than process-sim. Runequest is a rather process-sim game, yet still has space for mechanics that work like a skill challenge - the material on court cases in one of the Vikings supplements are very much like a skill challenge, for example.

And to take your Paladin example, that's the sort of thing that could go on a character sheet in HW/HQ as a temporary ability. This Paladin Cheats 13, perhaps. Something that might be used as a Flaw in some circumstances or a normal Ability in others. As a Flaw it would make some checks harder, since it implies this Paladin's word isn't as good, but as an Ability it might be used in situations where another Paladin would have more difficulty - persuading prisoners to talk, since they aren't protected by this Paladin's oaths.