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- Thread starter Laruuk
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As I see it there were three big differences between the launch of 3e and now.
First: The growth of the internet has brought even more people into contact via the message boards. So you have many more people with strong feelings one way or the other.
Second: A good portion of the community had either walked away from the current version (2nd edition), or house ruled the game beyond recognition due to the lack of support that TSR had left us with.
Those two things together left us with a much more fractured community, so when you looked online you had less people expressing the same view point as yourself, and would get less worked up.
Third: Back in 2000, we had not seen much in the way of enhancements to the core game in a good number of years... Heck we weren't even sure if D&D would really continue to be supported under WotC.
Today things are different. The community is more unified. In general we all like 3/3.5e and we think the system still has quite a bit that could be offered. We know the warts to the system, and we know how to work around them. So there's more cost if something goes wrong. Deep down I think every of us has asked, What if we hate the new edition? How much worse will our game be if we no longer have support for the game we love so much?
That fear together with the lack of details about the new system is driving much of the negitivity you hear expressed on this site.
Our group is planning on doing exactly what we did with 2nd and 3rd edition. We will all buy a players handbook, and try out the core system for a few weeks. If we like what we see, we switch systems. If not, we go back to 3.5 and continue to play it as it was. None of us seem very concerned due mostly to the fact that we all basically skipped 2nd edition... We all learned you grab what you want from the new stuff and build your own crunch to make it fix the older edition.
As I see it in the end this is a game about getting together with friends and having fun. And if a new edition or supliment gets in the way... Skip it. The best and most powerful feature of the game is: "The rules only exist as agreed by those around the table." And that fact will always be edition proof.
First: The growth of the internet has brought even more people into contact via the message boards. So you have many more people with strong feelings one way or the other.
Second: A good portion of the community had either walked away from the current version (2nd edition), or house ruled the game beyond recognition due to the lack of support that TSR had left us with.
Those two things together left us with a much more fractured community, so when you looked online you had less people expressing the same view point as yourself, and would get less worked up.
Third: Back in 2000, we had not seen much in the way of enhancements to the core game in a good number of years... Heck we weren't even sure if D&D would really continue to be supported under WotC.
Today things are different. The community is more unified. In general we all like 3/3.5e and we think the system still has quite a bit that could be offered. We know the warts to the system, and we know how to work around them. So there's more cost if something goes wrong. Deep down I think every of us has asked, What if we hate the new edition? How much worse will our game be if we no longer have support for the game we love so much?
That fear together with the lack of details about the new system is driving much of the negitivity you hear expressed on this site.
Our group is planning on doing exactly what we did with 2nd and 3rd edition. We will all buy a players handbook, and try out the core system for a few weeks. If we like what we see, we switch systems. If not, we go back to 3.5 and continue to play it as it was. None of us seem very concerned due mostly to the fact that we all basically skipped 2nd edition... We all learned you grab what you want from the new stuff and build your own crunch to make it fix the older edition.
As I see it in the end this is a game about getting together with friends and having fun. And if a new edition or supliment gets in the way... Skip it. The best and most powerful feature of the game is: "The rules only exist as agreed by those around the table." And that fact will always be edition proof.
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pawsplay said:
I wasn't intentionally attempting to draw any comparisons between the launch of 3e and the launch of 4e. My main intent was to foster some lively, sociable discussion.
I was commenting on how some of the complaints about 4e are similar, if not exactly the same,a s some of the compalints about 3e. Generally speaking, those complaints were/are knee-jerk reactions that resist change for the sake of resisting change.
Specific complaints, i.e. They're making broad changes to FR continuity, is not one that was heard during 3e's launch. It has more credibility than some of the others that I've heard.
Saying that WotC is just trying to make money is not a valid complaint about 4e as it can be applied to every product and service ever made/provided.
Ranger REG
Explorer
That and the fact that 2e has been out for 11 years.pawsplay said:
Death Dealer
First Post
Brother MacLaren said:
What's best for WOTC is if "the hobby" grows. As a business that's how they make more money. As fans of the game, which the designers & I believe most of the senior staff at WOTC (or at least the D&D portion of the company) are, it benefits them as well. "The hobby" grows by attracting new players. Of course they have to try to satisfy the existing gamers as well and to do this they must address common issues people have (e.g. Vancian Magic, multiclassing). 3E came out in 2000, 3.5 in 2003, so using 3 years as a guideline they're actually 2 years behind with 4E. When 3.5 came out I believe they said something about 4E coming out as early as 2007, so they have waited a little bit longer, probably to test the market with Star Wars Saga Edition and Tome of Battle, etc. These "new rules" books have helped to shape what will be "core" rules in 4E D&D (as many prefered the classes/rules of Bo9S over the standard Fighter). Just like everything in life most people resist change, some embrace it. If you don't like it, keep playing 3/3.5-with the OGL there's more than enough products and alternate rules to last a life time. I for one, will give 4E a chance.
Brother MacLaren
Explorer
Not exactly. What's best for the hobby is how often people play it and how much fun they have. What's best for WotC is how much money they spend. They are not necessarily the same thing.Death Dealer said:
Playing D&D as a kid, we had two rulebooks for 6 players. We had no minis, and just the modules that came with the boxes (B2 and X1). But we had a great time. And we contributed to game-hours played, which I would consider the measure of health of a hobby. If D&D could remain that cheap entertainment, it might have a larger number of players who played more aggregate game-hours but spent less money -- and that's not what WotC should want.
Actually, players who spend $X amount on a hobby and stop, never to spend any more don't contribute to the growth of the hobby.
That leads to dead titles that don't grow at all. No supporting products, no errata, no new players after a two-month window around the release. Just a handful of books, a dead company and a group of gamers that have moved on and maybe one day, they'll say, 'Do you remember that one game? We had fun with that. Shame no one ever bothered to do anything with it.'
Honestly, (and no offense), church groups that bought multiple copies of books to burn contributed more to the hobby. More money and more PR.
That leads to dead titles that don't grow at all. No supporting products, no errata, no new players after a two-month window around the release. Just a handful of books, a dead company and a group of gamers that have moved on and maybe one day, they'll say, 'Do you remember that one game? We had fun with that. Shame no one ever bothered to do anything with it.'
Honestly, (and no offense), church groups that bought multiple copies of books to burn contributed more to the hobby. More money and more PR.
Brother MacLaren
Explorer
A cheap hobby isn't necessarily a dead hobby.
There was a business model in which a few rulebooks were sold to players and many modules and settings were sold on an ongoing basis to DMs. This can keep generating new material at a fairly low level of revenue for an indefinite future, and doesn't alter the fundamental rules.
There is another business model in which more rulebooks are sold to players, typically increasing PC power. This generates a higher level of revenue and necessitates periodic edition changes. 1E started down this road with UA.
It is not clear to me that one business model necessarily leads to more players or more aggregate game time than the other; it is clear that the second business model leads to more money for WotC. I would consider the first metric "What is good for the hobby," and the second "What is good for WotC." WotC shouldn't care about the first, as it is NOT THEIR CONCERN. They are a business. Only their income should matter to them.
There was a business model in which a few rulebooks were sold to players and many modules and settings were sold on an ongoing basis to DMs. This can keep generating new material at a fairly low level of revenue for an indefinite future, and doesn't alter the fundamental rules.
There is another business model in which more rulebooks are sold to players, typically increasing PC power. This generates a higher level of revenue and necessitates periodic edition changes. 1E started down this road with UA.
It is not clear to me that one business model necessarily leads to more players or more aggregate game time than the other; it is clear that the second business model leads to more money for WotC. I would consider the first metric "What is good for the hobby," and the second "What is good for WotC." WotC shouldn't care about the first, as it is NOT THEIR CONCERN. They are a business. Only their income should matter to them.
