Removing homogenity from 4e

[jmucchiello]

In the parent thread, BryonD laments how homogeneous 4e classes are. And the response notes that 5e will probably not bring back more complexity to D&D.

Well, there's no reason you can't have complexity in 4e. You could have non-conforming classes in 4e that work alongside the standard classes. In fact converting some 3rd party 3e classes to 30 levels and modifying their class abilities to 4e terminology would work a lot better in some cases than doing a full 4e conversion. (I've often wondered if a 1e Wizard could be converted with just a boost to hit points.)

Of course, you can't publish such things with the GSL so you won't see anyone doing this. But calling 4e flawed because all the classes have to be the same is wrong. They don't have to be. But I doubt WotC will ever explore this avenue and it is cut off from 3rd parties.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Best way to remove homgenity from 4E is to play it without shallow preconceptions. It plays a whole lot different than it reads, and its not the mechanics but the tactics that make characters different. Put in a small effort to understand 4E, and the homogenity vanishes.

 

[malraux]

IWell, there's no reason you can't have complexity in 4e. You could have non-conforming classes in 4e that work alongside the standard classes.

I kinda hope that once all the power sources have been well tapped for PHBs WotC will do a line of Unearthed Arcana, Unearthed Martial, Unearthed Divine, etc, that does exactly that. There isn't any reason you couldn't do a more Vancian wizard in 4e, just as there isn't any particular reason why you couldn't make the martial classes more at-will/combo based. It would be a great way to keep things fresh without having to toss out the whole system. Clearly they are experimenting with this in the Psionic classes

 

[Dannager]

Best way to remove homgenity from 4E is to play it without shallow preconceptions. It plays a whole lot different than it reads, and its not the mechanics but the tactics that make characters different. Put in a small effort to understand 4E, and the homogenity vanishes.

This.

The homogeneity of 4th Edition is a myth perpetuated almost exclusively by those with little to no actual play experience.

It doesn't need to be removed. It was never there to begin with.

 

[AngryMojo]

This.

The homogeneity of 4th Edition is a myth perpetuated almost exclusively by those with little to no actual play experience.

It doesn't need to be removed. It was never there to begin with.

I'm going to have to throw in my lot with this as well. If you play a fighter, than a wizard and still think the classes are the same, you're probably not paying attention. Every character using the same system for their abilities doesn't do the slightest thing to discourage versatility or a varied play experience. Ask a Warmachine player about how different warcasters are, and then bring up that they all must be similar because they use the same rules. Then watch him laugh at you.

 

[Aramax]

This.

The homogeneity of 4th Edition is a myth perpetuated almost exclusively by those with little to no actual play experience.

It doesn't need to be removed. It was never there to begin with.

YAH!What he said!

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, having played some 4e, I'm going to throw my hat in with "they play distinctly even if they build similarly".

It's like every class using the same XP table in 3.x rather than using a different XP table for every class. It just isn't an issue.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rechan]

*cough* Psion or Monk *cough*

To an outsider, the classes in 4e are similar. But then, to an outsider, D&D and White Wolf games are similar. But the closer you get, the more details are present that the comparison just doesn't work.

The 3e melee classes all rolled a d20 to attack, used a weapon, added their strength to the attack and damage, and wore armor*. They all had feats. Yet if I said "they're too alike", most who play 3e would consider me quite wrong.

*Okay, the monk didn't use weapons or wear armor, but the monk just didn't work either.

 

[BryonD]

Best way to remove homgenity from 4E is to play it without shallow preconceptions. It plays a whole lot different than it reads, and its not the mechanics but the tactics that make characters different. Put in a small effort to understand 4E, and the homogenity vanishes.

Everything is relative. There are games out there with vastly more variety built in to the mechanics. Compared to those games, 4E is quite homogeneous.

I understand 4E very well. And the homogeneity is shining bright.

Perhaps, if you wish to actually contribute to a solution oriented discussion, you will quit offering shallow preconceptions of your own regarding other people's experience with the game you enjoy. Because, you are wrong. Deeply wrong.

I think you claim regarding mechanics vs tactics is pretty sketchy at best. But even with that, why can't we have both?

Also, I'll clarify that it is the game I referenced as homogeneous, not specifically the classes.

 

[AngryMojo]

Also, I'll clarify that it is the game I referenced as homogeneous, not specifically the classes.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to need a bit of clarification on this. In what way to you see 4e's mechanics as being homogeneous, and how is this a bad thing?