Removing homogenity from 4e

Really. Since there is no special rule that says my fighter CAN'T find traps, pick pockets, seduce princesses, eat rocks, control the weather, spontaneously combust or fly to the moon, I can automatically do all those things, right?

IMO Remathilis is right.

I played quite a bit of 2nd edition and basic D&D back in the day, and I never found a DM who would grant anyone but a thief the chance to find traps (short of being a dwarf or using a spell, though I can't recall Detect Pits and Snares or whatever it was called ever being used successfully).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you CAN'T do that under OD&D, just that it certainly isn't an explicit assumption on the part of the system. You do have to be careful with something like this lest it undervalue the thief (allowing the cleric a Wisdom check to notice a trap, for example, wouldn't be very fair since at low levels the cleric has much better odds of succeeding on that Wisdom check than the thief on his Find/Remove Traps check).
 

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... at low levels the cleric has much better odds of succeeding on that Wisdom check than the thief on his Find/Remove Traps check ...
Actually doing what it takes right off the bat need not be limited to a mere 20% or 35% or 50% (or whatever) chance, either. Note that with two rolls needed, 20% to find becomes just 4% to find and remove (24 to 1 odds against).

So, players have hooked themselves onto this notion of stacking the odds against themselves and leaving their fates in the fickle hands of chance as a form of "niche protection" that in fact does not protect anyone but gets thieves killed.

You can lead a horse to water, and indeed the designers kept trying that right through 3e. If they've become at last utterly fed up and decided to reduce everything to dice-rolls ... with "homogenization" to minimize unpredictability ... then I cannot much blame them.
 

Actually doing what it takes right off the bat need not be limited to a mere 20% or 35% or 50% (or whatever) chance, either. Note that with two rolls needed, 20% to find becomes just 4% to find and remove (24 to 1 odds against).

Yes, I'm aware that it was a crappy approach that killed many a thief. I was that thief many a time.

So, players have hooked themselves onto this notion of stacking the odds against themselves and leaving their fates in the fickle hands of chance as a form of "niche protection" that in fact does not protect anyone but gets thieves killed.

You can lead a horse to water, and indeed the designers kept trying that right through 3e. If they've become at last utterly fed up and decided to reduce everything to dice-rolls ... with "homogenization" to minimize unpredictability ... then I cannot much blame them.

It isn't the players that are doing it anymore than it's the DM. It's the system. Please direct me to the page in the 2nd edition PHB or DMG where it says that you can (or should) give players some kind of a check to succeed at finding traps even if they aren't a thief, or that you should role play the encounter entirely without dice. I won't even ask for rules (since I'm 99% certain they don't exist), guidelines would suffice.

I can tell you where that page is in 4e; page 42 of the DMG.

No doubt, a competent DM might create a functional method (house rule) to allow a fighter a means to move silently while ensuring that the thief is still the best at sneaking. However, it is a treacherous place to tread because if you give away everything the thief can do, what is he really left with? He's a sub-par fighter who needs a little less xp and might (rarely) get an opportunity to backstab.

That you can somehow try to blame this on players seems utterly preposterous to me.
 


... where it says that you can (or should) give players some kind of a check to succeed ...
If "check" means "dice roll", then why? It's mighty anachronistic to expect the old game to advocate principles of the new. All the DM needs to give is what the characters perceive.

A fighter cannot do all that the thief can in regards, say, to creaking floorboards or squeaking hinges. Nor can the fighter so blend into dark areas, flatten himself or herself, and, by remaining motionless when in sight, go unobserved.

It is hardly necessary to turn everyone (including thieves with mere 10% or 15% chances in their special functions) into clumsy bumblers! That is most definitely a "house rule", for which those contriving it are responsible.
 

If "check" means "dice roll", then why? It's mighty anachronistic to expect the old game to advocate principles of the new. All the DM needs to give is what the characters perceive.

A fighter cannot do all that the thief can in regards, say, to creaking floorboards or squeaking hinges. Nor can the fighter so blend into dark areas, flatten himself or herself, and, by remaining motionless when in sight, go unobserved.

It is hardly necessary to turn everyone (including thieves with mere 10% or 15% chances in their special functions) into clumsy bumblers! That is most definitely a "house rule", for which those contriving it are responsible.

You seem to have ignored the second half of the sentence of mine that you quoted, which seems to me like it should have been relevant to your response. In case you are uncertain, I'm referring to the following:

...or that you should role play the encounter entirely without dice.

The system of AD&D/OD&D pretty much assumes that (low level) PCs are clumsy bumblers at a great many things by default!

Again, I'll ask you to demonstrate where in the AD&D PHB or DMG it was suggested that the players should be able to overcome challenges via free form role playing.

Because I would say that "An Example of Play" on page 10 of the 2nd edition PHB seems to run somewhat counter to what you are saying here. The DM rolled several checks for the players to locate the secret door, which barring the presence of an elf could have easily been failed. The example explicitly didn't have the PCs automatically succeed in locating the secret door when the cleric stepped onto the block and searched the ceiling; stepping onto the block merely gave him the opportunity for a 1 in 6 chance (I think that was the non-elven chance anyway) to find it. Not very good odds, though I suppose it didn't matter for whoever wrote the example as I doubt they actually played through the scenario.

It isn't as obvious as you seem to imply (as my play experiences can attest to). If it wasn't present in the books, then you are house ruling. Don't be mistaken, I think that allowing your PCs to cleverly circumvent a 90% chance of failure is an example of good (or even great) DMing, but I'm 99% certain that it would also be a house rule under AD&D.

Free form RP is something that you can do with any game (or even without a game), be it 4e or AD&D. 4e just provides a robust and balanced mechanical system in addition to whatever free form RP, because when the DM is too inexperienced or simply uncertain whether a plan of action ought to succeed it's nice to be able to fall back onto something actually functional.
 
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Oh, Remathilis! I doubt that you really do not understand that one does not follow from the other.

Quite right, but I'm dismissing the "10-foot pole" notion of trap detection because that is not a function of game rules. If all traps can be found with 10 poles, rolling rocks down hallways, and "I observe the keylock VERRY closely" method of trap detection, why have a rule about it in the first place? Why give a class a "roll to find" when anyone can find them with a good enough description of their search methodology and a few mundane tools?

In the end, you have only three options: anyone can find a trap because they described finding the trap and the DM allows it (or doesn't, depending on his whim), anyone has a chance to find traps by the power of dies rolls (and the rogue may/may not have an advantage over other searchers) or rogues can find traps, everyone else can watch the rogue find traps. Personally, I find the first and last poor game design. We'll have to disagree on that.
 



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