Removing homogenity from 4e

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Now that we all understand each other, let's have a group hug and then:

Get to work. Propose how to remove it!

 

[Primal]

But how do you deal with opposed skill checks such as Bluff vs Sense Motive or Move Silently vs Listen?

The same way; for example, if a high level rogue/assassin would be about to coup-de-grace sleeping PCs, you need to beat 20 or so to hear "something" (you awake sleepy and groggy and naked but not helpless); even if the rogue should have (and even had) succeeded in killing them in their sleep (note: this is not a very good example as I wouldn't probably let the assassin auto-kill PCs even if they rolled a natural 1 on Listen/Perception). Or if they roll Bluff vs. Sense Motive, results above 20 nets them a success or a "partial" success, regardless of what the NPC rolled (especially if failure would result in something drastic like the PCs being jailed).

The only exceptions to this rule might be when players clearly expect that the DC should -- on "logical" grounds or for "dramatic"/story reasons -- be much higher (for example, when trying to bluff the king or make the finest sword in the country). Or when they're using their best skills (assuming some sort of "specialization"; usually the rogue or the wizard have highest individual skill modifiers in my group) and *can* regularly get 30+ skill check results.

I think this became more or less of an unwritten rule when we lost the whole group of PCs due to failing a single *Climb* check (DC 15; two PCs fell short by *one*) and everyone fell to their deaths -- probably the most embarrasing TPK I've ever heard of. Yeah, we had already beaten almost every monster in that place, and then we are killed by a... steep cliff. After that particular incident (quite soon after 3E had come out), we didn't roll against set DCs and the DM just told players to "Roll a Climb check" instead of revealing the DC (note: we were still more or less in the "AD&D mindset", and used to how NWPs worked, i.e. even 1st level PCs succeed in about 70-80% skill or ability checks).

 

[Remathilis]

Now that we all understand each other, let's have a group hug and then:

Get to work. Propose how to remove it!

I think I'm losing something with the language barrier, you freaky German you!

 

[AllisterH]

I think this became more or less of an unwritten rule when we lost the whole group of PCs due to failing a single *Climb* check (DC 15; two PCs fell short by *one*) and everyone fell to their deaths -- probably the most embarrasing TPK I've ever heard of. Yeah, we had already beaten almost every monster in that place, and then we are killed by a... steep cliff. After that particular incident (quite soon after 3E had come out), we didn't roll against set DCs and the DM just told players to "Roll a Climb check" instead of revealing the DC (note: we were still more or less in the "AD&D mindset", and used to how NWPs worked, i.e. even 1st level PCs succeed in about 70-80% skill or ability checks).

Ok, this has nothing to do with the discussion but this is just plain funny.

Now I can see why you moved to your system of skill checks...

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I think this became more or less of an unwritten rule when we lost the whole group of PCs due to failing a single *Climb* check (DC 15; two PCs fell short by *one*) and everyone fell to their deaths -- probably the most embarrasing TPK I've ever heard of. Yeah, we had already beaten almost every monster in that place, and then we are killed by a... steep cliff. After that particular incident (quite soon after 3E had come out), we didn't roll against set DCs and the DM just told players to "Roll a Climb check" instead of revealing the DC (note: we were still more or less in the "AD&D mindset", and used to how NWPs worked, i.e. even 1st level PCs succeed in about 70-80% skill or ability checks).

Did...did none of you have any rope, or flight spells, or magic items, or spiderwalk spells, or pitons, or...I mean...what?

 

[Primal]

Did...did none of you have any rope, or flight spells, or magic items, or spiderwalk spells, or pitons, or...I mean...what?

Well, the sorcerer fell first, and he was "specialized" in Illusions and thus had not picked 'Feather Fall' or 'Spider Climb'; I *think* the rogue had some magical item that would have saved him (and only him), but the player was so stunned by the sheer absurdity of the situation that he forgot to use it.

It had began as an urban campaign, but rather soon we relocated to Underdark -- unfortunately, our PCs hadn't stocked on required gear such as rope or pitons as we had to flee the city *very* quickly via some tunnels leading to Underdark.

It was embarassing as hell... 5th level party that included a ranger and a rogue and a sorcerer and two fighters defeated by a cliff.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Well, the sorcerer fell first, and he was "specialized" in Illusions and thus had not picked 'Feather Fall' or 'Spider Climb'; I *think* the rogue had some magical item that would have saved him (and only him), but the player was so stunned by the sheer absurdity of the situation that he forgot to use it.

It had began as an urban campaign, but rather soon we relocated to Underdark -- unfortunately, our PCs hadn't stocked on required gear such as rope or pitons as we had to flee the city *very* quickly via some tunnels leading to Underdark.

It was embarassing as hell... 5th level party that included a ranger and a rogue and a sorcerer and two fighters defeated by a cliff.

Haha, I actually had a similar thing happen to me once.

I think every character I've made since then either has some method of flight or a ROD OF ROPES, the best magical item ever.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, I'll follow on the rest, but full stop right here.
This is my claim. So you agree with me. The end.

No, that's not the end. That's too simplistic. Just because you have more raw choices (and I don't mean rules as written raw, just base choices) does not mean you have more diversity in play. If a segment of those choices are better than others, then you wind up with fewer real choices.

That's an issue I'm trying to bring up. Because the skill rules (and most of the chargen rules for that matter) in 3e so heavily reward laser beam focus and actively punish not focusing, you don't actually have that many real choices. Yes, you can have 2 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, but, by double digit levels, that's just a waste of time. It won't do anything.

A choice that leads to a dead end is not a real choice IMO. Now Primal's game moved around that by changing the rules, and that's fine. But, that's not what we are discussing. We're not talking about Primal's game, we're talking about 3e D&D. IMO, you actually don't have the diversity you claim in 3e, simply because when the pencil hits the paper, so many of the choices are so obviously bad that they become more or less invalid.

So, most characters wind up being extreme experts in a very small number of skills (barring rogues of course) and being completely incompetent in the rest. That's not diversity, that's actually homogeniety. Everyone is a small area expert, large area incompetent. Yes, you can still be a small area expert in 4e, but, because of the way the mechanics work, you can actually spread that around a bit and still be capable of success (albeit not likely).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think I'm losing something with the language barrier, you freaky German you!

Yes, probably. A real shame.

 

[billd91]

It was embarassing as hell... 5th level party that included a ranger and a rogue and a sorcerer and two fighters defeated by a cliff.

Embarrassing, I can see that. But I personally don't have a problem with characters being defeated by a cliff. They're hard to climb for people who aren't trained at it and why, in real life, they are effective barriers.