Removing Racial HD

[Celebrim]

In truth, I only posted this because one of my players wanted to play a half-dragon stone giant. Maybe the higher LA's aren't such a bad idea...

LOL.

Yes, I would say that they were. As I said, I'm not a big fan of "monster pc's" (even though I once ran a campaign were the valid racial choices were kobold, goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear, and gnoll), but I'm even less a fan of playing +LA templated creatures. The +LA templates are a case in point about why some sort of XP penalty is essential.

A 1st level half-dragon human fighter is probably slightly weaker than his 4th level human fighter comrade, but not by that much only because of the relative disparity in HD means that half-dragon has so few hitpoints. As the level of both characters increases, this relative disparity will disappear. By the time the 20th level human fighter compares himself to the 17th level half-dragon human fighter, its no contest, the half-dragon fighter is hands down superior with more skill points, higher damage, nearly identical hitpoints, and a host of minor benifits like darkvision, immunities, and an occasionally useful breath weapon. Pretty much all the +LA templates are like this, weak for the first few levels, then quickly outstripping non-templated creatures in power. Half-Celestial and half-infernal are even worse.

I can't possibly believe that there is anything about the personality and life of a half-dragon stone giant that is intrinsicly interesting and worth exploring that is unique to half-dragon stone giants and which would have sufficient depth to be worth exploring as a PC. I can barely imagine enough personality for this thing to make an interesting NPC. I think the real 'interest' here isn't the character, but the 40 strength, huge size, insanely high dexterity for such a large creature, +15 natural armor bonus, base 40' speed, immunity to paralyzation, etc. That's not a player showing an interest in a character. That's an interest in mechanics, and mechanics do not entertain me the way interesting characters do. Anything that doesn't entertain isn't going to be approved.

 

[Sylrae]

I lioke your reply Celebrim. I agree.

The "Half Dragon Stone Giant" has little merit, beyond being broken.

I'd expect some amazing fluff for that one, and again, we'd be back to making balanced progressions. Odds are the progression would take more levels than the HD+LA in this case.

 

[Celebrim]

Honestly, my favorite races are 'monsters'.

1. The Satyr:...

Yeah, ok, I could see that. I've had memorable Satyr NPC's, and Satyr's would be really unusual in civilization but probably would be recognized as fey after an initial argument over their nature and the summoning of scholar's for consultation. They could travel fairly freely, their personal habits aren't excessively anti-social, their outlook on life sufficiently 'human' to relate to, and the ammount of uproar they'd cause wouldn't be excessive, nor are they over the top in their power. I don't see alot here that makes them problimatic. Taking the 10% penalty into acount, I could see letting one in as a +1 LA race with no racial HD, and maybe one or two racial levels that could be optionally taken after the first to the get full suite of bonuses.

The Succubus/Incubus.

Ok, now you've lost me. This has everything that makes a monster PC problimatic: they have severely anti-social personal habits, they are rightly feared and would be rightly persecuted when discovered, their outlook on life is too alien to fully understand, they would have severe difficulty integrating with any imaginable party regardless of composition, their power level is too far off the chart to easily integrate with +0 LA characters (+6 LA!) I can't imagine (and I'm not sure I want to) what you are going for here or why they are interesting in a way that say a predatory human wouldn't be. I have a hard time imagining you'd be playing a succubi, and would tend to believe that you were just playing a human in succubi drag and if not, then I have a hard time imagining how you'd get along with anything (given your chaotic evil nature).

3. A Dryad. They make for fun druids, particularly with their bound-tree being sentient. I'd like to have that as an option from level 1, but even if I have to use the 6th level druid spell to make my tree portable, it's quite fun.

If you say so. I think that if you play a dryad with a portable tree, you've ceased to be a dryad. I'm not sure what you have going there that isn't found in a human or elf intensely connected to nature, but you certainly don't seem to have any inherently tree-ish nature left by that point.

 

[Steinhauser]

I wouldn't judge a player for wanting to play a half-dragon stone giant. However, I'd make him take a big nerf on it. Perhaps he'd be a stunted, sickly, or simply a very young character.

The half-dragon stone giant child was abandoned at birth by his giant mother, forced to wander the humanoid lands, facing prejudice and hate - perhaps seeking out his draconic parent in the hopes of acceptence. That might make a character with depth, and you could keep his crazy abilities on a leash. The point is, if your player really is dedicated to playing a character concept and not monster stats, he'll accept a nerf.

 

[Celebrim]

I wouldn't judge a player for wanting to play a half-dragon stone giant. However, I'd make him take a big nerf on it. Perhaps he'd be a stunted, sickly, or simply a very young character.

See. I'm the reverse. I would judge a player's motives for wanting to play a half-dragon stone giant, but if these proved worthy then I'd not put a big damper on the player's fun. Any balancing that would occur would be purely for the benefit of the other players at the table.

The half-dragon stone giant child was abandoned at birth by his giant mother, forced to wander the humanoid lands, facing prejudice and hate...

To begin with, this is such a cliche at this point that I'm already losing interest, but I have to ask, why is that character more interesting than a human child that was abandoned at birth by his mother, forced to wander, facing prejudice and hate, and seeking out his father in hopes of acceptance? Nothing you've said about the character is intrinsicly giantish or intrinsicly draconian. In fact, the character concept sounds like a human in monster drag.

 

[Sylrae]

Yeah, ok, I could see that. I've had memorable Satyr NPC's, and Satyr's would be really unusual in civilization but probably would be recognized as fey after an initial argument over their nature and the summoning of scholar's for consultation. They could travel fairly freely, their personal habits aren't excessively anti-social, their outlook on life sufficiently 'human' to relate to, and the ammount of uproar they'd cause wouldn't be excessive, nor are they over the top in their power. I don't see alot here that makes them problimatic. Taking the 10% penalty into acount, I could see letting one in as a +1 LA race with no racial HD, and maybe one or two racial levels that could be optionally taken after the first to the get full suite of bonuses.

You just get to play an extreme hedonist. Lots of drinking and women. It's fun.

Ok, now you've lost me. This has everything that makes a monster PC problimatic: they have severely anti-social personal habits, they are rightly feared and would be rightly persecuted when discovered, their outlook on life is too alien to fully understand, they would have severe difficulty integrating with any imaginable party regardless of composition, their power level is too far off the chart to easily integrate with +0 LA characters (+6 LA!) I can't imagine (and I'm not sure I want to) what you are going for here or why they are interesting in a way that say a predatory human wouldn't be. I have a hard time imagining you'd be playing a succubi, and would tend to believe that you were just playing a human in succubi drag and if not, then I have a hard time imagining how you'd get along with anything (given your chaotic evil nature).

While we never held fast to alignment restrictions, Chaotic Evil is not uncommon in our groups. Our current group has a jack the ripper type who likes to kill prostitutes.There's lots of issues with guards hunting them down, but theyre pretty clever, and so theyve been pretty successful in evading them. This group is particularly evil though.

Often they're/we're self-serving mercenaries, lots of N and CN, with the occasional LN, and an evil player or two. Playing as 'heroes' is the uncommon playstyle.

A Succubus fits in decently, doing selfish things and if you go into summoning demons and wreaking havoc and laying waste to villages, that's acceptable play in our games.

If you say so. I think that if you play a dryad with a portable tree, you've ceased to be a dryad. I'm not sure what you have going there that isn't found in a human or elf intensely connected to nature, but you certainly don't seem to have any inherently tree-ish nature left by that point.

I'd say youre still tree-ish, just portable. I liked that character, and it was a fun non-evil character.

 

[CAFargo]

See. I'm the reverse. I would judge a player's motives for wanting to play a half-dragon stone giant, but if these proved worthy then I'd not put a big damper on the player's fun. Any balancing that would occur would be purely for the benefit of the other players at the table.

Curiously, the same player has made a half-dragon half-orc who has taken a lot of aberrational feats. He explains himself as being half-dragon, quarter-orc, eighth-human, and eighth-aberration. For some reason, he either plays a bard or a fighter who has at least 2 different races mixed in.

In truth, though, he does his role-playing well enough that I'm willing to wave the fact that he is a total power-gamer at character creation. On the other hand, he seems to have no trouble steeling things or doing completely wacky (used acid breath in small amount to fuse pincers to his ax) and illegal (he flew the party (due to high encumbrance) over the border from a court-room to escape being framed) things that tend to nullify his LG alignment.

 

[Runestar]

Let me get this straight? You people think that stone giants with the half-dragon template (ECL21) or orcs with the half-dragon template and taking all the abberation feats are power-gaming?

I too would bar them from playing these combinations, but my rationale would be that they would be too weak for their ECLs to contribute meaningfully in the party. They risk being dead weight and dragging everyone down with them.

 

[Celebrim]

Let me get this straight? You people think that stone giants with the half-dragon template (ECL21) or orcs with the half-dragon template and taking all the abberation feats are power-gaming?

No, I think that they are boring. I think that the person who wants to take them probably thinks that they are power gaming and is just doing it badly. The actual power level involved doesn't really interest me that much.

 

[CAFargo]

No, I think that they are boring. I think that the person who wants to take them probably thinks that they are power gaming and is just doing it badly. The actual power level involved doesn't really interest me that much.

I disagree. You see, the character dealt massive damage on a crit at 6th level, is next to impossible to hit, and has DR 5/(something...) and energy resistance 5 to a whole bunch of things.

On the other hand, I encourage power gaming, JUST AS LONG AS it goes hand-in-hand with roleplaying. That's one thing he's a master at. He even uses his great singing range to help him with his character's deep, throaty growl.