Removing spellcasting from dragons...

[Woas]

I say strip the spellcasting whole sale. As others, I too just do not see dragons waving their non-oposable thumbed claws around chanting spells (or wearing most magic items either).
I wouldn't mind somehow working meta-breaths or other non-spell casting special abilities you can add onto dragons. But not spell casting

If a dragon wants buffs and lair guards and all that, the dragon can get humanoid thralls and servants to do that.

 

[zoroaster100]

I don't see dragons chanting and waving their claws about to cast spells, but I do see dragons producing magical effects (such as many kinds of spells) through will power alone, through their gaze, or by speaking seductively to their victims, like Glaurung the Golden in Tolkien's Silmarilion.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I don't see dragons chanting and waving their claws about to cast spells, but I do see dragons producing magical effects (such as many kinds of spells) through will power alone, through their gaze, or by speaking seductively to their victims, like Glaurung the Golden in Tolkien's Silmarilion.

So the various components (e.g., S&V) are selectively not needed, I take it.

Personally, I think spell-like abilities are the way to go. They don't USE magic; they ARE magic.

 

[ValhallaGH]

So the various components (e.g., S&V) are selectively not needed, I take it.

Personally, I think spell-like abilities are the way to go. They don't USE magic; they ARE magic.

Word.
This alters the mechanics to the desired flavor; namely they look or mutter or speak sweetly and the world alters in a way only reproducible (by mortals) by means of a powerful arcane effect.

Dragons chanting a waving their claws about is a danged silly image. Rampaging, fire breathing and glaring at things that suddenly alter is much more fitting of their archetype.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

I say keep the spellcasting in.

Now truth be told I totally missed the spellcasting aspect in my early attempts at running dragons of appreciable power. After all, no spell lists in the 3.0MM and when you run stuff on the fly....

Fast forward to now (more play experience, 3.5 = better Dragon stat blocks in the MM and the Draconomicon)) and I’ve not only caught on to what should have been obvious, but also learned a few things, such as:

*Dragon spellcasting is a means to throw in a handy spell after the fact that I might not have thought of before play (smells like DM cheating I’ll grant, but within limits this action serves to keep play vs. Dragons very challenging and fun).

*Spell selection and implementation is a means to add more flavor to each dragon, thus differentiating them in the player’s eyes and making each more unique.

*For an experienced Dungeon Master, a good Dragon encounter (including dragon spellcasting) can challenge every member of the party, which is as it should be. A dragon should be able to go head to head with the best fighter, sling and counter spells vs. the party wizard, keep the rogue on his toes and indenture the cleric to a full encounter’s worth of healing --all within one encounter. I don’t see this happening as often without the availability of spellcasting.

I personally feel Dragons are a corner case, inasmuch as game design vs. theme/sacred cows, etc... is concerned. That is, I just don’t think it’s a good idea to look only at game design and mechanics when thinking about how dragons and their abilities are detailed in game terms.

What’s more, I think Dave is off the mark so far as his vision of the archetypal Dragon is concerned; to me these creatures have always been as much about spells and magic as they are about immolating armies and rending multiple foes limb from limb.

As I understand it Dragons were deliberately designed to be more powerful than their CR would suggest. I say this idea should carry forward.

J. Grenemyer

 

[blargney the second]

I've done a few mix & matches in my DMing career, like subbing out a rakshasa's spells for psionics. I *really* enjoy the idea of subbing out a dragon's spells for warlock invocations or initiate maneuvers and stances. That's just all kinds of awesome.

 

[Cadfan]

I personally just ignore offensive spellcasting, and just apply the buff spells to the dragon's stats without any fuss. If dragons were meant to cast fireballs at players they wouldn't come loaded with muscles, claws, teeth, and breathing fire.

That being said, I don't mind older dragons being able to do some basic magic that helps theme them as npcs. But I prefer it to be noncombat type stuff, and I don't mind making it unique to the particular dragon, or without specific rules. For example, an ancient dragon might have a dream-vision like ability, that is superficially similar to scrying when he is asleep.

But when it comes to battle, I'm not having the part of the dragon that is cool and unique (huge firebreathing lizard of death) get replaced by the part that is ordinary and every day (huge firebreathing lizard of death attacking the same way a medium level sorceror does).

 

[Nifft]

I heart dragon spellcasting! It's good in so many ways.

1/ Dragons now have a use for wands, scrolls, etc. so that stuff gets put in their treasure (and PC mages & clerics get it later).

2/ Tactical smart dragons will use their spells intelligently -- which means fun for the DM (me) designing their spell load-out based on their personality. Does a dragon take mage armor or divine favor or comprehend languages? It's an interesting question, I think.

3/ Dragon caster level is low for their CR, so a PC spellcaster (who can't really hope to affect a dragon much directly, thanks to its immunities, SR and saves) can contribute mightliy by stripping off all its buffs.

4/ Dragon lairs are famous for their traps. A spellcasting dragon can be so much fun if it actively contributes to the traps! "Ooo, you hear a very deep growl (spellcraft roll please) and suddenly the ladder out of the pit is greased!"

5/ Really ancient good dragons may be the only non-deity-aligned source for high-level divine magic. That's a cool implicit campaign feature.

Cheers, -- N

 

[A'koss]

Personally, I'd rather see them just make good use of their "natural" abilities (with various appropriate feats) and leave off the spellcasting by default. Want a spellcasting/invoking dragon? - Take class levels like other monsters...

 

[Derren]

Spellcasting is simply part of D&D dragons and removing it makes no sense at all.

Also only some european mythological dragons couldn't produce magical effects or talk. All others could. So the iconic dragon is not the "dumb beast" some people seem to want.

And from the gaming point of view at higher level you simply need spellcasting to be effective. Dumb beast have no chance. And sorry, but a DM who is not able to run a monster with spellcasting should not DM (or even play D&D).