Repeating the Mistakes of the Past

Technically, glut is a product that doesn't sell because there's too much of it. Quality doesn't matter, really. So it's glut if they put out so many books that no one can or wants to buy them all, regardless of the nature of the book.
 

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Technically, glut is a product that doesn't sell because there's too much of it. Quality doesn't matter, really. So it's glut if they put out so many books that no one can or wants to buy them all, regardless of the nature of the book.
If an unsold copy sits on my FLGS's bookshelf at 50% off for over a year, it's glut in my book.
 

Technically, glut is a product that doesn't sell because there's too much of it. Quality doesn't matter, really. So it's glut if they put out so many books that no one can or wants to buy them all, regardless of the nature of the book.

Yes, although quality may impact whether it sells or not. Some products produce glut (overabundance) because too many were printed, while some produce glut because they were poor quality and didn't sell. This is why there was a huge glut during the early OGL days - tons of third party product of mediocre quality that ended up not selling.

If [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] wants an even playing field, that is non-moving goal-posts and a clear definition, here's some actual dictionary entries (from Merriam Webster):

too much of something : a supply of something that is much more than is needed or wanted

an excessive quantity

The first is relatively clear and objective: when supply outweighs demand. The second, however, is more subjective as "excessive" can vary. The key to both is that they are relative - supply and excess relative to demand.

But both imply that "glut" does NOT mean, contrary to what Mistwell has been peddling, total number of products in a vacuum; its total number of products relative to demand. The excess of those products that do not sell = glut.

In that regard, I would maintain that 4E glut was worse than Pathfinder glut is. I don't have proof of this but I'd wager that most game stores would tel you that they have had more dead 4E product than Pathfinder product. Dead product = glut.
 

It is repeating the mistakes of the past, but in a different sense than you mean it.

WotC is in a totally different failure mode than TSR was at the end of its life. WotC's current failure mode is a result not of repeating the mistakes of the past, but an attempt to replicate its past successes. In terms of aphorism, the one most relevant here is 'fighting past wars'.

In the early 90's, TSR had suffered for a dearth of good writing and produced a lot of inexcusable trash. But by the mid to late 90's, TSR actually had a core of good writers - the same writers that would later on go on to make 3e a success - and product quality in terms of writing at or around the 30th anniversary mark was actually quite high.

But what was killing D&D at the time was a clunky rules set that hadn't really integrated any of the lessons learned over the prior 30 years and still felt like it came out of the 1970's. Most people, myself included, had come to feel that the rules set was just irredeemably bad and ill suited to running a modern immersive game. No one was really paying much attention to D&D because it seemed like a game of the past and even there good content wasn't attracting much GM attention except from the diehards that wouldn't run anything else.

3E therefore came as a revolution - proof that the core rules of D&D were still solid and relevant and could be the basis of a mature fantasy game. The core D20 mechanic, hit points, classes, and the rest were redeemed, and there was a lot of reevaluation of the D&D concept by GMs like me that were finding high realism, lethality and grit and so forth not the be all end all of RPing. GMs came back to the game.

But WotC had made a critical mistake for all of its success. Knowing that the problem was the rules set, and knowing that a portion of what killed 2e/TSR was its over focus on creating IP, WotC decided to largely forgo creating new IP for the 3e brand. Instead, it bet everything on being a crunch factory and choose to largely outsource fluff production on the grounds that crunch was higher profit. This ultimately led to a focus on player centric fluff and a player centric rules set because there was more immediate bang for the buck in selling books to players than GMs. Meanwhile, fluff - adventures, settings, etc. - was largely in the hands of third parties.

4e and now D&DN represent the thinking of a company that believes its flagging sales are the result of a rules set that hasn't evolved with the times, and that the core selling point of a gaming company is its system. This is a company that believes that reason people play a game or don't play a game and most importantly do or don't buy a game is the quality of the rules set, and after all that is was to a large extent true.... in 1998.

But this isn't 1998. It's fighting the wrong war, and in doing so its killing its own brand, Balkanizing the community into separate non-conversing communities in a way far exceeds the isolation caused by 2e's diversification of setting and greatly reducing the inherent appeal of the D&D rules set in the process.

Meanwhile, if you look at what it's competitors at Pazio an Monte Cook Games are doing you'll see that Pazio has built its empire on exactly the opposite approach from WotC post the introduction of 3e. Instead of building a player centered game, their core business identity is in fluff - the adventure paths. And their rules/crunch production is at least as heavily geared to producing GM tools as it is to providing player options. Monte meanwhile proves his real genious by completely understanding where his previous work was failing, and for Numenera is engaged in some of the most novel and expansive IP generation related to a PnP game launch I've ever seen.

WotC is about as relevant as the dodo bird, still thinking that if they just found the magic rules set everyone would be playing their game again.
 

4e and now D&DN represent the thinking of a company that believes its flagging sales are the result of a rules set that hasn't evolved with the times, and that the core selling point of a gaming company is its system. This is a company that believes that reason people play a game or don't play a game and most importantly do or don't buy a game is the quality of the rules set, and after all that is was to a large extent true.... in 1998.

But this isn't 1998.

Are you positive of that? Given how often we see folks claiming a single solitary rule as a basis for not so much as purchasing a book, much less playing a campaign? Given how many ruleset-centric players we see, who will not so much as consider playing something other than their preferred game?


Meanwhile, if you look at what it's competitors at Pazio an Monte Cook Games are doing you'll see that Pazio has built its empire on exactly the opposite approach from WotC post the introduction of 3e. Instead of building a player centered game, their core business identity is in fluff - the adventure paths.

Well, other than some adjustments, they didn't have to build a game at all! They were handed the rules-set by the OGL. I think you mistake their approach, which has been to dodge the main R&D costs associated with producing a game, such that the line as a whole has a far lower investment it has to pay back. Having dodged that bullet, *everything* they produce has greater bang for the buck. It is not at all clear to me that they'd have followed the same path if they had to also develop their own rules from scratch.

Monte meanwhile proves his real genious by completely understanding where his previous work was failing, and for Numenera is engaged in some of the most novel and expansive IP generation related to a PnP game launch I've ever seen.

But it remains to be seen if this produces long-lasting results, which means it is hardly support for your basic contention.

WotC is about as relevant as the dodo bird...

WotC is as relevant as we make it. We are all talking about them, many chomping at the bit in anticipation of buying the next game. So, they're relevant. They will cease to be relevant when we stop buying their products, and not before.
 

I was always told that what sunk TSR was the Buck Rodgers licensing debacle as well as some spectacularly poor business decisions like selling books for a loss and carrying fifteen year old inventory.

DnD as a brand was doing fine and if TSR had been better managed, we'd still be talking about THAC0.
 

I also think Paizo figured out they were over-publishing. They just cut the individual adventures, and reduced the upcoming schedule relative to the prior two years. I'm betting they saw some dropping sales in some types of products, from the glut.

I'll take that bet.

Ramp-backs on the Modules line had more to do with internal staffing and our ability to get these specific products out on time (or the lack of said ability), along with a format switch to a larger format, coupled with the chaos of the impending Emerald Spire Superdungeon release, and honestly didn't have much to do with sales at all. I do think it smarter to produce fewer, larger adventures, and the audience seems to agree, since sales have indeed increased since we made this change. But it as an internal logistical change more than anything to do with sales.

Carry on.

--Erik
 

WotC is about as relevant as the dodo bird.

WotC is so irrelevant that we're still talking about it endlessly despite it not actually having a game in production. And that there are dozens of other threads with hundreds of replies talking about it right now. And companies fighting over the movie rights, and producing boardgames and mobile apps and comics and Lego-like-things and novel lines. All while the game's not even in production.

WotC is relevant. Never fear.

And come later this year, when DDN is released? Whatever one's opinions on DDN, WotC will be ten times as relevant as it is right now. It's going to be a big year for tabletop roleplaying. D&D will be everywhere.
 

I often wonder, if 3e hadn't gone through, if WotC put out an adventure or two per year, would they still be making money today? I wonder if a little company could have made enough money all these years that way...

Looking back I wonder what the RPG community would be like if 3e and the OGL never was... would White Wolf have been top dog, or would the whole idea of RPGs have shrunk to almost no size at all...

How many people we know would not be able to make money in this industry... there would be no enworld or O.L.D and N.E.W or Numanera or Pathfinder...

I myself am very grateful that some card company making magic the gathering picked up TSR instead of letting Gary's game die... and I'm greatful they have grown and updated the game over the years... If they are repeating past mistakes maybe things are still getting better...
 

You don't need to test fluff. Fluff does not need to be balanced. A glut of fluff doesn't result in power creep, option creep, or option paralysis.
But it can result in poor gaming material.

WotC spent a lot of effort on story element design for 4e (see eg Worlds & Monsters) and seems to be spending a lot of effort for D&Dnext too (see eg Wandering Monsters).

If 4e had a more balanced crunch:fluff ratio allowing better balancing, the edition might have lasted longer. But WotC opted for quantity over quality. Ditto most of the books during 3e. Slowing the release schedule would have extended that edition as well.
Putting to one side the quality vs quantity issue - I personally think there is a lot of quality in the 4e books - from WotC's point of view why is it a problem that the edition doesn't last so long? They are interested in revenue per time period, not endurance of editions. Unless there is evidence that edition churn hurts revenue. Is there?
 

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