Requesting 'Bluff' Help and others...

[tylermalan]

The thread "is there a distinction between bluffing and lying" made me remember some things that came up recently, one of which has to do with bluffing, the other is not really related...

1) Is there a rule out there somewhere regarding PCs using the Bluff skill against each other, or NPCs using it against PCs? I seem to recall there being something that said that player's don't get bluffed (ie, they don't get the Bluff skill used against them). Instead, they just choose what they want to believe or not. Am I crazy? This would make taking ranks in Sense Motive less of a viable option...

2) How do illusions affect undead, intelligent and unintelligent?

Much appreciated for the help.

 

[Nail]

2) How do illusions affect undead, intelligent and unintelligent?

As long as the illusion isn't [mind-affecting], there's no difference between UD and other creatures.

 

[mikebr99]

The thread "is there a distinction between bluffing and lying" made me remember some things that came up recently, one of which has to do with bluffing, the other is not really related...

1) Is there a rule out there somewhere regarding PCs using the Bluff skill against each other, or NPCs using it against PCs? I seem to recall there being something that said that player's don't get bluffed (ie, they don't get the Bluff skill used against them). Instead, they just choose what they want to believe or not. Am I crazy? This would make taking ranks in Sense Motive less of a viable option...

Much appreciated for the help.

THe player may choose to not believe whatever his character is being told... but if he fails his sense motive, the character believes it... and the player has to play it accordingly.

Mike

 

[tylermalan]

As long as the illusion isn't [mind-affecting], there's no difference between UD and other creatures.

Well, what exactly is mind-affecting? The argument was brought up that if someone creates an illusion of a crate in the middle of a room, and a zombie walks into the room and sees the crate, it will walk around the crate to get to the other side of the room. That is, as per this argument, "mind-affecting", because the fact that the crate is seen by the zombie causes the zombie to do something that it otherwise wouldn't have done, ie, walk around a crate that isn't really there.

 

[tylermalan]

THe player may choose to not believe whatever his character is being told... but if he fails his sense motive, the character believes it... and the player has to play it accordingly.

Mike

But the character will never really know if he fails his sense motive. No matter what he rolls, he could still fail, or still succeed, and never know. Plus, this way, a sense motive has to be rolled literally every time an NPC opens its mouth? Regardless of truth or falsehood?

 

[mikebr99]

But the character will never really know if he fails his sense motive. No matter what he rolls, he could still fail, or still succeed - so no matter what the roll, its still up to the player. Playing his roll is still, in this case, up to the player based upon what he actually believes.

Well, if the player acts contrary to what the sense motive tells him... then the DM needs to point out that he is metagaming... and his character actually does "this" based on the info given via a bluff.

Mike

 

[tylermalan]

Well, if the player acts contrary to what the sense motive tells him... then the DM needs to point out that he is metagaming... and his character actually does "this" based on the info given via a bluff.

Mike

So the DM is going to tell the player what his character does?

 

[starwed]

Well, what exactly is mind-affecting?

It's actually a specific, game-defined category of effect. If a spell or effect doesn't explicitly state that it's mind affecting, it's not.

In other words, the illusion will work on the zombie; it'll act exactly as it normally would to a crate.

 

[tylermalan]

It's actually a specific, game-defined category of effect. If a spell or effect doesn't explicitly state that it's mind affecting, it's not.

In other words, the illusion will work on the zombie; it'll act exactly as it normally would to a crate.

Ok, that's what someone said about this debate as well. To which the reply "what happens when a zombie accidentally falls through the crate?" was given. Does the zombie not "see" the illusory crate anymore? Does it know that it isn't real? What about his zombie buddies, who see him fall through it? What do they think about it?

 

[Bad Paper]

So the DM is going to tell the player what his character does?

In a tenuous don't-you-dare-break-this-game manner, yes.