D&D 5E Requiring players to know their character

Blue · Oct 10, 2019

Not to bury the lede: Is it okay as DM to put pressure on some players to know their character enough not to slow the game unnecessarily by delaying super-rapid advancement from the party.

One group I play with has been asking for me to run for them. Everyone is a lot of fun to game with and comes up with interesting characters that they roleplay well. Level of system mastery varies a lot at the table, and that's fine. Except in the case of two players who regularly need help with their characters. Ask them to make an ability / skill check and it takes a while. Working out to-hit bonus and bonus damage numbers every round, or sometimes every attack. Forgetting about class features for a whole combat, like the Ranger's Colossus Slayer. Learning about their spells. It slows down the game at the table. I've been playing with this group 1-2 years now, I don't see a lot of change.

I have a theory that this is exasperated by them using an app to create and level their characters, so they aren't involved in the details but just have them presented. But, in fairness, everyone's busy and they know that others are willing to share their expertice so they show up early and ask for advice and level right there. Learning from others is something I support, so that's a legitimate offsetting point.

Anyway, we've done Tier 1 several times as a group, and everyone is happy to either skip it or get past it in a hurry. I don't want to start the players who don't know the character mechanics well at 5th, I think that will make the problem worse. So I was planning on starting at 1st and just advancing quickly - leveling every session until 3rd, then almost as fast up to 5th. (This group has been exclusively milestone based levelling under the various DMs, levelling when the DM says so is part of our social contract.)

But I don't want to lose them by going to fast, so I was thinking of advancing as long as everyone seemed to have a good familiarity on the mechanics of their character. Not that they can't ask for help, but things like not needing to be reminded every time to add in Hunter's Mark bonus damage, or whatever. (This only would apply during the rapid advancement up to 5th, there would be no delays once it's at "normal" advancement pace.)

On reflection though, other players may see that as those players denying them their level up. And if over this much time the players who are slow seem to have indicated through their actions that the mechanics aren't their priority so this may be unfun for them on that side as well. But the goal is to speed up play at the table, which I think is a reasonable goal.

I would discuss this with the group before implementing it, only going through if everyone was for it.

What are your thoughts? Is this a reasonable thing to present to the group? Is it a jerk move I should just scrap?

sim-h · Oct 10, 2019

My players are slow. One or two know their features very well - one or two don't. Also in any long campaign, sometimes there are subs who will slow things up as others give them advice, they read up on spells, etc.
It's a social thing for us tho. We don't really care how long it takes to level up, as long as people are enjoying themselves. As DM I sometimes feel a tinge of frustration. But then I just drink more beer

Larnievc · Oct 10, 2019

I’d not take that direction.

I have a similar problem with a ranger who adds up her to hit bonus, saves or skill checks seemingly every bloody time (you can even see her lips move as she adds up).

It’s infuriating. But what is easy for some is hard for others- she finds it really easy to take offence (for example).

I jest.

What I found works best is to not helicopter parent her. If she says her 11th level hunter ranger does 6 points of damage with a +2 bow, colossus slayer and hunter’s mark up then that’s what she does.

That’s on her, not me (or you).

My solution is to not worry about it until it becomes a problem for the player: then let them fix the problem.

akr71 · Oct 10, 2019

Yes, I expect players to know their stuff. No I don't expect players to know every single spell, verbatim - I don't - but I do expect them to have a general understanding.

However, I have had a number of new players at my table, so me and the other experienced players are patient and I do assist with attack and damage rolls when necessary. Like the OP, I do think online character creators and managers 'keep the training wheels on' as it were. One of my players basically manages another player's character sheet updates for them, resulting - in my opinion - in the player not really understanding the game. The player in question frequently jumps right to damage dice after saying "I attack."

Ringtail · Oct 10, 2019

I think it depends on your group. Only you know what these players are like. While I think it is reasonable for a GM to expect their players to know their abilities, it comes down to the individuals on whether or not they will take that piece of advice well or not. Though I think if you say it nicely, you shouldn't have any problems.

It might not work though. I play in a group where every member (except 1) has been a GM. We rotate GM's every campaign and we're all great friends. Its a unicorn I know. We all have a relatively good system mastery then, except for the 1 player who hasn't GM'd. (We play 5e but try other games from time to time, not just D&D.) This player consistently to forgets to do anything other than their basic attack. If they are a spell caster they almost always use a cantrip instead of a spell-slot. If they are a fighter or martial class of some sort they always forget to add their attack modifier to a roll, or their ability modifier to damage. At first it was pretty annoying, but this player is just here for the story, not the mechanics. So we make sure they add their Attack and Damage modifiers and that's it. Nothin' much to be done.

As for starting at 5th level, I'd say just start at 5th level. I don't really think the problem is going to get any worse and it isn't going to get any better by working through those levels. If everyone is cool with it, game on.

iserith · Oct 10, 2019

I'm not too concerned with player skill, though I do think it's an important factor in the game. Players will have different skills and it's on them to work that out to their advantage.

Slowing down the game though? That's a big problem for me. We move fast, relative to other groups in my experience, and that's how I aim to keep it. If your player skill means that you slow down the game, it will be addressed and quickly at our table. Before it can be addressed, I would need to know what the issue actually is by talking to those players. Some people learn differently and I don't want to just assume they're lazy or stupid. Only once I have a grasp on the underlying problem can we put together a plan to address it.

DEFCON 1 · Oct 10, 2019

For some of my players I write and print up a "combat sheet" that basically takes the weapon / attack / damage section of the character sheet and blows it up to large font and all the weapons they may use, plus listing their "bonuses" they can add from various features / spells and such. That way they have one clean sheet in like 12 or 14 point type that says something like...

Longsword: +4, 1d8+6
Javelin: +3, 1d6+3
Dagger: +4, 1d4+4

Critical Hits: On any natural 19 or 20

Action Surge [___]: Take a second Action immediately. Refreshes after a short/long rest.

Having one completely separate sheet away from the character sheet that has everything needed for fighting printed out that they can reference to has helped speed them up. The character sheets are good if you want everything together in one single place and for people who can find what they need easily enough... but stuff like combat usually involves a lot of fiddly bits that it's hard to find or focus on in and amongst all the other stuff. Some people have a harder time reading it (especially if you need to use small print to fit it all on in that one middle section of the character sheet.

Quickleaf · Oct 10, 2019

Blue said:
Not to bury the lede: Is it okay as DM to put pressure on some players to know their character enough not to slow the game unnecessarily by delaying super-rapid advancement from the party.

One group I play with has been asking for me to run for them. Everyone is a lot of fun to game with and comes up with interesting characters that they roleplay well. Level of system mastery varies a lot at the table, and that's fine. Except in the case of two players who regularly need help with their characters. Ask them to make an ability / skill check and it takes a while. Working out to-hit bonus and bonus damage numbers every round, or sometimes every attack. Forgetting about class features for a whole combat, like the Ranger's Colossus Slayer. Learning about their spells. It slows down the game at the table. I've been playing with this group 1-2 years now, I don't see a lot of change.

I have a theory that this is exasperated by them using an app to create and level their characters, so they aren't involved in the details but just have them presented. But, in fairness, everyone's busy and they know that others are willing to share their expertice so they show up early and ask for advice and level right there. Learning from others is something I support, so that's a legitimate offsetting point.

Anyway, we've done Tier 1 several times as a group, and everyone is happy to either skip it or get past it in a hurry. I don't want to start the players who don't know the character mechanics well at 5th, I think that will make the problem worse. So I was planning on starting at 1st and just advancing quickly - leveling every session until 3rd, then almost as fast up to 5th. (This group has been exclusively milestone based levelling under the various DMs, levelling when the DM says so is part of our social contract.)

But I don't want to lose them by going to fast, so I was thinking of advancing as long as everyone seemed to have a good familiarity on the mechanics of their character. Not that they can't ask for help, but things like not needing to be reminded every time to add in Hunter's Mark bonus damage, or whatever. (This only would apply during the rapid advancement up to 5th, there would be no delays once it's at "normal" advancement pace.)

On reflection though, other players may see that as those players denying them their level up. And if over this much time the players who are slow seem to have indicated through their actions that the mechanics aren't their priority so this may be unfun for them on that side as well. But the goal is to speed up play at the table, which I think is a reasonable goal.

I would discuss this with the group before implementing it, only going through if everyone was for it.

What are your thoughts? Is this a reasonable thing to present to the group? Is it a jerk move I should just scrap?

Are they accessing their character sheets using a phone app? For example, I've noticed that my players who prefer a digital character sheet and access it using a smartphone are slower on their turns than players using a tablet or a pen-and-paper sheet. I discussed this with one of my players and he says it has to do with how DnDBeyond's digital character sheet works on smartphone, where you'll click some part of the sheet (a spell, for example) and then wait for another dialogue box to come up, and then if you need to cross-reference something you need to close that dialogue box, open another, and then reopen the spell. Apparently tablet makes it play faster somehow.

This may come down to a question of usability. I've joked with many players about the "tax form" appearance of a D&D character sheet – because it is a pretty complex thing to come to terms with for someone who just want to play a game with their friends. It might be worth kicking off a chat with your slower players that's very non-confrontational, maybe beginning with, "So, how is that character sheet for you? Can it be hard to find what you're looking for on it?"