D&D 5E Requiring players to know their character

Jaeger

That someone better
This sort of cynical suspicion of everyone...

OP has two friends who have a hard time with the mechanics of the game. That’s it. Stop trying to make a mountain out of it.

The OP is not talking about new players...

Dude, it's probably not even intentional on their part. They're probably just lazy and are not self-conscious enough to see how it is effecting others.

Single digit math and the basics of combat is not hard. Especially for 5e.

We are talking about grown adults here, right?

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Li Shenron

Legend
Don't play 5e

Come on, don't be too dramatic :) 5e is one of the best systems so far to bring differently complex PCs at the same table, it was designed with that in mind (although they could have taken it farther ). Anyway if the OP changes to another system, the OTHER players may not like it. I think it makes sense to strive for a solution within 5e before totally change game.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Not to bury the lede: Is it okay as DM to put pressure on some players to know their character enough not to slow the game unnecessarily by delaying super-rapid advancement from the party.

...

So I was planning on starting at 1st and just advancing quickly - leveling every session until 3rd, then almost as fast up to 5th. (This group has been exclusively milestone based levelling under the various DMs, levelling when the DM says so is part of our social contract.)

But I don't want to lose them by going to fast, so I was thinking of advancing as long as everyone seemed to have a good familiarity on the mechanics of their character.

...

On reflection though, other players may see that as those players denying them their level up. And if over this much time the players who are slow seem to have indicated through their actions that the mechanics aren't their priority so this may be unfun for them on that side as well. But the goal is to speed up play at the table, which I think is a reasonable goal.

If I were in your game, I would end up among the players who know a lot about their PC, but I would not mind AT ALL a slow advancement. In fact I am most often annoyed by fast advancement because I want to know my PC abilities well! I can't speak for your players however, but make sure how they all feel about advancement speed, maybe they want to skip low levels but are fine with slowing down around 5th?

For your problematic players, I would definitely try to encourage them to get into enjoying learning the rules better, but obviously you have to find a way to make it sound an encouragement, not a duty, so don't go too far.

OTOH you can really help them with props. Consider at least alternate character sheets, spell/action cards, and tokens/counters.

I run D&D for my children since they were ~7 and I have gradually designed our own stuff, starting with better character sheets. You can find them in the download section but I don't think they are right for you: one of my purposes was to encourage my kids to rely on simple calculations on the fly, so I removed the skills section, but I left the room for precalculating weapons and cantrips attacks (I wanted them to do simple additions every now and them, but not every single round! ). Your case is different but you can figure out better character sheets by eliminating everything that's not useful on a regular basis, try to end up with the smallest possible character sheet for them.

Second, I designed and printed out action cards (spells, special abilities and some common abilities like 2wf), and color-coded them by action type. Having cards in front of you of what you can do on your turn is a lot better than a list on the character sheet, especially when sheets are too often designed for optimising character creation instead of character usage in game... see how many sheets organize abilities depending on source (separate sections for racial abilities, class abilities, feats...) instead of when you can use them (combat, exploration, downtime...)? This is the same mistake as organising your tens of thousands of Lego bricks by colour instead of shape: makes it easy to store them the first time, and a nightmare later to find what you need :D

You can also use colorful counters like poker chips for spells slots or limited resources, to help remember how many they still have.

Just keep in mind to focus on the players in need. These ideas require some work, so don't embark on a quest to design e.g. spell cards for every class and level... just make those you need NOW for those players only otherwise you'll be overwhelmed by work...
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Slow at mechanics?

Two Players, who have been through more than one campaign, and can still not be tossed to learn the basics about their PC's abilities and basic combat rules.

That's disrespectful to the table. And the GM. Any table; any GM.

As long as you are willing to put up with that; nothing anyone can say here will help you.

Because you seem unwilling to address the real problem.

Those two will just keep doing what they are doing, and you're just gonna keep taking it.

Have you even tried being straight-up with them?

"Hey dudes, ya' know single digit math, and the basics of your PC's abilities really shouldn't be a constant thing by now. Can you get on top of it? It's impacting the game."

Or some variation. See what they say.

If the answer is anything less than some version of this:

"Sorry bro, yeah it's a bit embarrassing, my bad. I'm on it dude, no worries next session. Can I borrow the players guide to brush up?"

You should see immediate change - with the players making an honest effort to be better.

If you don't, then FYI: All those two players are seeing is that one is born every minute. And you're it.

Disrespect requires intent. They don't have that. You, it seems, do. Even after hearing they are an asset tot he table you want to toss them for an imagined slight. Have fun doing that are your table if you are that thin-skinned.

Then the personal attacks - that definitely makes your point.

We've talked before. They don't have an issue with math, they have an issue remembering what numbers to use. Examples have been given. Forgetting to add in Hunter's Mark or Colossus Slayer, or adding on Colossus Slayer more than once per turn just like they are adding in their Hunter's Mark. Not realizing when they took the +1 longsword that the weapon they had before was finesse and that when add DEX they are adding in the wrong numbers.

I'll continue to enjoy them as great roleplayers who are lots of fun at the table even if there are ways for them, as for anyone else, to improve.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
We often have players slow down things because they don't know their characters well enough. Making a simple attack roll or ability check even. I have emphasized to them to do the math ON THEIR CHARACTER SHEET! Under Weapons, there is a reason why we have a column for Attack and Damage. An ability check is just ability modifier + proficiency bonus if you have it... how difficult is that? Honestly?

Yes, I would even implement a rule that if the character wants to do something and the player doesn't know how it works, I skip over them and move on. When they are ready, then they can act. If I finish the round and they aren't ready, maybe next round. As a DM, when my turn comes up I am ready and keep the action moving. Especially if a player knows their turn is coming, they should be prepared.
 

kyuss

Explorer
Disrespect requires intent. They don't have that. You, it seems, do. Even after hearing they are an asset tot he table you want to toss them for an imagined slight. Have fun doing that are your table if you are that thin-skinned.

Then the personal attacks - that definitely makes your point.

We've talked before. They don't have an issue with math, they have an issue remembering what numbers to use. Examples have been given. Forgetting to add in Hunter's Mark or Colossus Slayer, or adding on Colossus Slayer more than once per turn just like they are adding in their Hunter's Mark. Not realizing when they took the +1 longsword that the weapon they had before was finesse and that when add DEX they are adding in the wrong numbers.

I'll continue to enjoy them as great roleplayers who are lots of fun at the table even if there are ways for them, as for anyone else, to improve.

So, if all you want is people to tell you that you're doing just fine, why the original post? You said yourself " I've been playing with this group 1-2 years now, I don't see a lot of change."

Buddies, pals, bros or not - if a player can't be arsed to learn HOW to play the game after 1-2 years of playing, they're bad players and you should stop playing with them. Or just put up with it and stop complaining as THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
So, if all you want is people to tell you that you're doing just fine, why the original post? You said yourself " I've been playing with this group 1-2 years now, I don't see a lot of change."

Buddies, pals, bros or not - if a player can't be arsed to learn HOW to play the game after 1-2 years of playing, they're bad players and you should stop playing with them. Or just put up with it and stop complaining as THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE.

First, I don't at all want people to say what I'm doing is fine, I'm soliciting their feedback. The only thing I argued about - before this response - was the person who kept on telling me to throw them out of the group. That this one flaw is worth tossing them regardless if they are net positive and a lot of fun to play with. They also assumed that as one DM among many in a shared group I had the unilateral power to toss people from the group, but I didn't even get into that with them.

So I really don't get in the slightest where you're getting that I just want people to tell me what I was thinking was fine. You may want to actually read my posts before making up my motivations, since that's explicitly against what I said in the first post and there is no evidence anywhere else that I feel that way.

As to why I was thinking about this, different people get motivated in different ways. We've tried many times helping them, and we've talked to them about getting up to speed. This, on the other hand, is a bit of both carrot and stick - they get rapid advancement from it, and peer pressure from others if they are the ones holding the group back. If you ever have to deal with people as a manager, or ever have kids, you'll learn that how people respond differs. (Or if you don't, you'll suck at it.)

But with the number of mixed responses from those who actually read my points, I've already decided not to go through with it. It might work, or it might foster ill will. And I'd rather not risk that. And there are a great number of other suggestions how to help them that other posters have contributed.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Those two players are being incredibly disrespectful.

Life is too short to be disrespected.

That last cuts both ways.

It is only disrespectful if there's not some underlying reason for the behavior. It isn't necessarily all about you - they have a life and their own stuff going on that may need to be considered. And if you aren't considering that... well, then you aren't being respectful of them.

In addition, you probably need to think about how big a piece of their life your game is. They are only going to put into it to the degree that it makes sense in the rest of their life. That's not disrespect, that's simply balancing their priorities.

If you want a certain level of system mastery from your players, you really ought to say that up front - "Folks, I'd like to run a fast-paced game here, especially in the combats, and that'll mean you probably need to really know the rules relevant for your character to play." That sets proper expectations.
 

Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
I'd suggest borrowing the M&M quick stat block section is has:
  • The first one or two primary attacks iwth attack bonus, followed by damage (or other function) under normal conditions.
  • Total defenses under normal conditions. This would include AC, Saves, and Resistance if any
  • Finally the most relevant Skill proficiencies such as a rogue's Expertise abilities
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I'd suggest borrowing the M&M quick stat block section is has:
  • The first one or two primary attacks iwth attack bonus, followed by damage (or other function) under normal conditions.
  • Total defenses under normal conditions. This would include AC, Saves, and Resistance if any
  • Finally the most relevant Skill proficiencies such as a rogue's Expertise abilities

Sure, something like this NPC I am playing now:

1571001858280.png


I actually tried making a "character sheet" using this format, but there is too much variability to make it really work. :(
 

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