Reshooting game of thrones seasons 6+

[Ralif Redhammer]

That broadness of scope at the onset was part of what made the books so compelling. Those cliffhangers as it switched from one person to the next, weaving them all together.

However, when he was past the half-way point, as more and more POV characters had gotten killed off, he started introducing new POV characters. Not content to just give us new perspectives from existing characters, he started introducing whole new ones with whole new plot threads. And that's, I think, a big part of the mire he's found himself in. At the same point in the tale, the HBO series instead was consolidating and closing down threads to focus on the main narrative.

The series gets to the point that there are so many characters, in so many places, that he doesn't have time to catch up with all of them, and so we got a second book which is basically a lot of them hustling to get to where the next actual plot points will be, and this takes place simultaneously with the previous book.

If someone had a time machine and told GRRM to keep his POV characters to a dozen, he'd have been a lot better off.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That broadness of scope at the onset was part of what made the books so compelling. Those cliffhangers as it switched from one person to the next, weaving them all together.

However, when he was past the half-way point, as more and more POV characters had gotten killed off, he started introducing new POV characters. Not content to just give us new perspectives from existing characters, he started introducing whole new ones with whole new plot threads. And that's, I think, a big part of the mire he's found himself in. At the same point in the tale, the HBO series instead was consolidating and closing down threads to focus on the main narrative.

Yeah, he's explicitly said that he's been paralyzed by the need to service so many outstanding plot threads. He needed an editor with experience in big sprawling narratives. Maybe someone should do a seance and have James Michener advise him.

 

[Dausuul]

Yeah, he's explicitly said that he's been paralyzed by the need to service so many outstanding plot threads. He needed an editor with experience in big sprawling narratives. Maybe someone should do a seance and have James Michener advise him.

You'd think GRRM of all people wouldn't have trouble with too many plot threads. But maybe he lost his scissors.

 

[Umbran]

I can't be the only person thinking that once Winds Of Winter and the final book is complete (the former is 75% done now), that HBO should reshoot seasons 6 and onwards to match the books.

I am sure you aren't the only one to think it. But that doesn't mean this will happen, or is even a good idea.

General production issues with the passage of time other people have already discussed. But none of them have even touched the implosion that is currently HBOMax. It isn't clear that the service will be up for that sort of content creation in a couple of years.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But none of them have even touched the implosion that is currently HBOMax. It isn't clear that the service will be up for that sort of content creation in a couple of years.

Look, there are a lot of castles in Westeros that could use Chip & Joanna Gaines' touch. Lord knows Harrenhal could use some shiplap.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Absolutely. When one book started to balloon into A Feast for Crows and A Dance of Dragons, an editor should've recommended some serious pruning. Of course, who knows, maybe GRRM did hear that advice and didn't listen?

Yeah, he's explicitly said that he's been paralyzed by the need to service so many outstanding plot threads. He needed an editor with experience in big sprawling narratives. Maybe someone should do a seance and have James Michener advise him.

 

[pukunui]

Absolutely. When one book started to balloon into A Feast for Crows and A Dance of Dragons, an editor should've recommended some serious pruning. Of course, who knows, maybe GRRM did hear that advice and didn't listen?

Yes, I think you could make an argument that the power of the editor / producer / publisher is inversely proportional to the power of the author / creator.

Look at George Lucas. The Star Wars OT is arguably better because he still had to listen to the studio execs and such, whereas he held all the cards with his arguably inferior PT.

Look at JK Rowling. The first Harry Potter book is reasonably slim. The later ones are much longer. I seem to recall a similar thing happening with Robert Jordan and the Wheel of Time.

As the author's voice gets louder, the editor's gets correspondingly smaller.

(Yes, I'm sure there are exceptions to this as well.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Given that we now know how much GRRM loves supplemental books, off-loading a lot of the minor characters to them would have been a good idea. Keep the core story about the Starks and Lannisters and have the rest of the wacky gang show up in side books later on. ("Ooh, after all these years, we finally learn what Hot Pie was up to!")

 

[Mercurius]

The series gets to the point that there are so many characters, in so many places, that he doesn't have time to catch up with all of them, and so we got a second book which is basically a lot of them hustling to get to where the next actual plot points will be, and this takes place simultaneously with the previous book.

If someone had a time machine and told GRRM to keep his POV characters to a dozen, he'd have been a lot better off.

Thanks, and yes, agreed, which leads me to....

GRRM's original plan was to skip ahead five years after "Storm of Swords." You'll notice how that book wraps up with all the major conflicts either resolved or dormant. Daenerys is settling in to rule Slavers' Bay, the Lannisters have beaten down their rivals and their hold on the throne appears secure, Mance Rayder's army has been crushed and Stannis has joined his forces to the Night's Watch. Arya is going off to become a Faceless Woman, Bran has gone beyond the Wall, Littlefinger is Lord of the Vale and Sansa is masquerading as his bastard daughter, Jon has become Lord Commander, and Tyrion has killed Tywin and Shae and fled Westeros. It's all set up where the next book could start "Five years later..." and you wouldn't feel like anything critical was skipped.

For whatever reason, GRRM decided the time jump wasn't going to work, and so he spent two books compressing and backfilling the plot that had been intended to happen offstage. The results were the least compelling books in the series (IMO).

Thanks. It really sounds like he kind of blew it, and I'm guessing that he regrets his choice, though probably would never admit as much publicly.

Yes, I think you could make an argument that the power of the editor / producer / publisher is inversely proportional to the power of the author / creator.
Look at George Lucas. The Star Wars OT is arguably better because he still had to listen to the studio execs and such, whereas he held all the cards with his arguably inferior PT.

Look at JK Rowling. The first Harry Potter book is reasonably slim. The later ones are much longer. I seem to recall a similar thing happening with Robert Jordan and the Wheel of Time.

As the author's voice gets louder, the editor's gets correspondingly smaller.

(Yes, I'm sure there are exceptions to this as well.)

This can work both ways. I believe that Jordan, for instance, was pushed by his publisher to extend the series - WoT being a huge cash cow and all. For those not around cognizant at the time, WoT was a massive phenomena - it was the series that "everyone" (meaning all fantasy readers) were reading, and waiting for each new release with anticipation.

Meaning, I don't think it was simply a matter of him getting more control and then writing the series he wanted to write. I believe that once he got a few books in, the story naturally became longer than what he originally had in mind, but as far as I can tell, much of the "expanded accordion effect" of the series after the 5th book or so was "inspired" by the publisher nudging him in that direction. I'm guessing that if sales hadn't been so good, he would have wrapped it up in in 8 books or so.

As for George Lucas, I see it a bit differently. There are several problems with the prequels, but they all seem to boil down to the difference between who Lucas was in the 70s when he came up with Star Wars, and who was in the 90s when he worked on the prequels. He went from being a relatively unknown 30-something Joseph Campbell reading film director to a 50-something massively wealthy executive producer who had since become enamored with CGI (with the horrible "improvements" to the OT a harbinger of this tendency). Oh, and the prequels were the first films he had actually directed since the original Star Wars.

I mean, maybe a stronger editorial voice would have reminded Lucas what made the OT so great - the cast chemistry, the organic effects, the Campbellian storyline, etc. But all of those issues seemed to be symptomatic of a man who had lost the magic touch of youth, and one who was very much embedded within the Hollywood machine of merchandising and big budget extravaganzas.

 

[pukunui]

This can work both ways. I believe that Jordan, for instance, was pushed by his publisher to extend the series - WoT being a huge cash cow and all. For those not around cognizant at the time, WoT was a massive phenomena - it was the series that "everyone" (meaning all fantasy readers) were reading, and waiting for each new release with anticipation.

Meaning, I don't think it was simply a matter of him getting more control and then writing the series he wanted to write. I believe that once he got a few books in, the story naturally became longer than what he originally had in mind, but as far as I can tell, much of the "expanded accordion effect" of the series after the 5th book or so was "inspired" by the publisher nudging him in that direction. I'm guessing that if sales hadn't been so good, he would have wrapped it up in in 8 books or so.

You might be right. I was thinking specifically of how the books seemed to get longer as the series went on as well.

As for George Lucas, I see it a bit differently. There are several problems with the prequels, but they all seem to boil down to the difference between who Lucas was in the 70s when he came up with Star Wars, and who was in the 90s when he worked on the prequels. He went from being a relatively unknown 30-something Joseph Campbell reading film director to a 50-something massively wealthy executive producer who had since become enamored with CGI (with the horrible "improvements" to the OT a harbinger of this tendency). Oh, and the prequels were the first films he had actually directed since the original Star Wars.

I mean, maybe a stronger editorial voice would have reminded Lucas what made the OT so great - the cast chemistry, the organic effects, the Campbellian storyline, etc. But all of those issues seemed to be symptomatic of a man who had lost the magic touch of youth, and one who was very much embedded within the Hollywood machine of merchandising and big budget extravaganzas.

Yeah, exactly. He became massively wealthy and yeah, perhaps he lost his touch, but the point is, there was also no one who could rein in his excesses.