Resistance and other effects

[Echohawk]

I have a hopefully easy rules question. I should really know the answer to this, or at least be able to find it in the Rules Compendium, but despite a bath-long search, I couldn't find it.

The question: If an attack does "5 necrotic damage, and the target is weakened (save ends)", and the target has "resist 5 necrotic" do they still become weakened?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, they were still hit, so anything that is applied on a hit still happens.

 

[Sebastianelgar]

Yes, they are weakened. Negating damage from an attack does not negate any effects of the attack.

 

[Riastlin]

Yes, they were still hit, so anything that is applied on a hit still happens.

There may be occasions where certain feats allow the character to ignore the additional effects as well but in general AA has it right.

 

[Echohawk]

Yes, they were still hit, so anything that is applied on a hit still happens.

Much obliged, that was my assumption during Sunday's game. Do you perhaps have a rules reference for that?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Much obliged, that was my assumption during Sunday's game. Do you perhaps have a rules reference for that?

No, it is just one of those "the rules don't say otherwise, therefore" kinds of things. Resistance reduces damage, it doesn't mention negating effects. There is no general rule saying "A power which doesn't do any damage for whatever reason doesn't count as a hit" so by general rules construction a hit is a hit and the effect is valid.

 

[Echohawk]

No, it is just one of those "the rules don't say otherwise, therefore" kinds of things. Resistance reduces damage, it doesn't mention negating effects. There is no general rule saying "A power which doesn't do any damage for whatever reason doesn't count as a hit" so by general rules construction a hit is a hit and the effect is valid.

That explanation would explain why I couldn't find it even after a fairly thorough rummage through the Rules Compendium .

I hope it's not my imagination that there was a rule like that in either 3.0 or 3.5; there must be some reason why I wasn't sure of my initial call

 

[Riastlin]

I don't know all of the feats/abilities/etc. I know there's a genesai (I believe) feat that allows the PC to ignore slow and immobilize effects from Cold attacks. Dwarves also have a racial feature that allow them to reduce forced movement by 1 so I could a force attack that includes a "Push 1" or similar wherein the dwarf then resists that too.

The point being though that the resistance/immunity to the rider effect is independent from the damage resistance. So its not enough for the player to simply say "But I have Poison resist 10 so take no damage and thus no weakened."

On a side note, in the original example, if the attack also inflicted 5 ongoing damage, I believe the PC is still subject to the ongoing damage effect (though he would resist all of the damage). There's a magic armor for instance that has a power that will end the ongoing damage and give the PC regeneration equal to the amount of the ongoing damage.

 

[Fkewl]

I've had the same situation with my Leader Ardent and his dailies

On other player found this :

PHB p. 55:
"Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power’s other effects."

This is now clarified by Rules Compendium p. 225:
"If a creature is immune to charm, fear, illusion, or poison, it is unaffected by the non-damaging effects of a power that has that keyword... [*BUT*] Immunity to one part of a power does not make a creature immune to other parts of the power. For example, a creature that is immune to thunder is hit by a power that both deals damage and pushes the target [THUNDERWAVE!], the creature takes no damage, but the power can still push it."

I guess this also implies that Resistance to 0 damage doesn't prevent additional effects

So, the only confusion left is: are "charm, fear, illusion, or poison" are exceptions to the rule or do they fall under the rule if other keywords are there too (e.g. Arcane, some other damage type...)?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I've had the same situation with my Leader Ardent and his dailies

On other player found this :

PHB p. 55:
"Resistance or immunity to one keyword of a power does not protect a target from the power’s other effects."

This is now clarified by Rules Compendium p. 225:
"If a creature is immune to charm, fear, illusion, or poison, it is unaffected by the non-damaging effects of a power that has that keyword... [*BUT*] Immunity to one part of a power does not make a creature immune to other parts of the power. For example, a creature that is immune to thunder is hit by a power that both deals damage and pushes the target [THUNDERWAVE!], the creature takes no damage, but the power can still push it."

I guess this also implies that Resistance to 0 damage doesn't prevent additional effects

So, the only confusion left is: are "charm, fear, illusion, or poison" are exceptions to the rule or do they fall under the rule if other keywords are there too (e.g. Arcane, some other damage type...)?

Well, IMMUNITY states this. Since the OP was asking about resistance it wasn't germane to the discussion, but since you bring it up...

Poison is the one oddball one. Poison is both a damage type and an effect type. As for charm, fear, and illusion they are purely effect types. So if a monster is immune to say charm then any effects of a charm power will not affect it. Damage can't have a type of 'charm' and thus it still applies. In the case of Poison the immunity applies to both the effects and the damage, so a creature with Immunity: Poison won't suffer effects from a Poison keyword power. Technically the damage from the power could be of other types or have additional types, so the immunity isn't always going to apply to the damage. The rules as of now state that if a power does damage of a type it also has that type as a keyword, which means if you add poison damage to an attack that lacks the poison keyword, a poison immune creature will now be immune to ALL of the effects of the power! Oddly the reverse is not clarified, a power with the poison keyword may or may not do poison damage.