Resisting Diplomacy

[ThirdWizard]

Recently a PC used Diplomacy to try to convince some NPCs to accompany them into a lich's territory. He rolled really well so the NPCs felt really bad about not going with them.

 

[gizmo33]

There's a fine line between "taking risks" and "sacrificing" yourself - a risk may turn into a sacrifice depending on things that the NPC can't control ("ex. hey, be a hero and pull that lever for me, will ya?")

So far I've been ruling along the lines of Painandgreed's suggestions - wishing someone ill or well doesn't necessarily mean that you will act on that feeling. I may wish someone ill but if they're acting in my best interest I'm not going to do anything about it except for certain situations - and those are probably based on alignment and personality factors. A Lawful Good person may fight back that sense of personal disdain for a begger who rolls a poor diplomacy check and still give the beggar money because of his personal values.

I think an NPCs personality/alignment should be the final say in how they behave. Diplomacy would have it's greatest effects in the short term where there are no immediate effects. Long-term manipulation IMO would require some intelligence/discernment and be based somewhat on the personality of the target. A +45 Diplomacy skill should certainly be worth a heck of a lot - but I would rule that it falls short of actually causing long-term personality changes in NPCs.

 

[Stone Dog]

To use an extreme example (and get away from Turanil's example ) all the convincing in the world won't make the kind-hearted peasant strangle his daughter in her sleep... unless he's already entertained the possibility.

Not with Diplomacy. With bluff all you need is a mildly plausable lie and the ability to keep the lie snowballing until his daughter has obviously been in congress with satan himself and is a DAMNED SOUL BEYOND REDEMTION! Now good smith! Kill the witch now, before she wakes and reads in your mind that you know her blasphemous secrets!

With a high enough Bluff and enough time to work on somebody you can get them to do quite alot. Othello, Needful Things and other works are based on the power of one (or several) very convincing lies aimed like a jewelers chisel at just the right spot in an otherwise virtuous mind.

Oh, and diplomacy can work wonders to if you take things in increments. I knew somebody who could talk many people into considering a hypothetical situation by starting out with "Would you for a million dollars" and negotiating down. You might say "But Dog, you yourself said it was hypothetical!" Yes and as far as I know it stayed that way, but the point is that he could get people to actually consider it. And all through reasonable.. rational debate and diplomacy. It was uncanny.

 

[kanithardm]

Go Here http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=136814 Bye.

 

[Chimera]

Remember, one person's idea of helpful is not always the same as someone else. If you use diplomacy on a prison guard and he becomes helpful, perhaps the most he does is gets you clean sheets and extra food.

Or perhaps he simply remembers to feed you on a semi-regular basis, rather than just forgetting about you.

Diplomacy is not Charm or Suggestion or the be-all, end-all of making people do improbable things and act against their own best interests. The unfortunate thing is that too many D&D players seem to think that it is.

Hey, just look how well it works in the real world!

 

[TheRelinquished]

Well being a player of a very sexy sorcerer with a silver tongue (I should've named him Lingus the Cunning), I find myself all to often having to make diplomacy (or bluff) checks to get us out of mishaps often caused by actions of my robotic companion. It hasn't been a big problem and in the end it's always up to my DM whether or I swing it or not.

What I do is try to actually persuade the DM by roleplaying it, I actually say what I would say were I in my character's shoes, and if the story is elaborate and convincing enough, then I get an indeterminate circumstance bonus.

After that I roll and add my modifier to see if my DM thinks I convinced him. If anything it's based more on the RP portion than anything. The roll is (besides a formailty) just a way to see if my character's game face was on that day.

If all else fails, make the person he's trying to sweet-talk deaf. Better yet, 75% deaf, so that way he loses his elegance for yelling everything and for the person hardly understanding. I'd say thats worth at least a -15 circumstance ^_^.

~TheReverend

 

[ARandomGod]

Now, I don't have a problem with him being a master smooth-talker. But still, I'd like having some way of allowing high-level NPCs a chance to resist his eloquent ways and not just help him out every time he opens his mouth...

Resist with opposed diplomacy (they know that he's just smooth-talking by experience, they recognize a fellow) or sense motive (they sense that the person is not sincere, or the real motivations behind the person's talking).

Also, just because they're friendly or even actively sympathetic/feeling helpful, that doesn't say to what degree they're willing to go to help. A high score can certainly talk someone out of making an effort to oppose the player, but to actively help? That would have to be something that was in the target's nature in the first place. If you manage to make someone who'd wouldn't go out of his way to save a friends life, he certainly won't put himself out to help some friendly stranger.

Or to say "Helpful - will take risks to help you" might mean, to some people, that they'll risk not stopping you as being 'helpful'. Sometimes "I'll pretend I didn't see you" IS a risk to help you.

Here's a good example of this viewpoint:

Friendly doesn't mean he's still not obligated to kill you.

Another...

I don't recall his name, but the "helpful" entry for the lich 'living' in the cemetary is something like "offers to turn the PC into an intelligent undead".

Hehehehh... Ahh. I didn't read this. However I used that exact scenario (well, other than where the lich lived) on a PC once. ALthough the diplomacy check was pretty high, and it went from 'offered' to 'attempted, for their own good'. Actually, as I recall, it was "tricked the PC, and succeeded".

 

[ARandomGod]

However, I feel the need to add that someone with a high diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and intimidate (see MindBender PrC) and enough time could very likely convince you to do ANYthing. Especially if he charms you first. Brainwashing can happen. Eventually he should be able to drop the charm and still have you be essentially a willing slave.

 

[IcyCool]

I have the following problem:

One of the PCs in my group is good at the Diplomacy skill. In fact, he is very good - he gets a +18 bonus at 7th level. So he can talk pretty much anyone into being reasonably friendly (or at least indifferent) to him.

Only a +18? Bah! Come back when your player munchkins (yay, it's a verb now!) the system and pulls out a +30 or so at that level.

On a more helpful note, as several people have said before, Diplomacy isn't Charm Person, you can't force people to take actions. At best they'll take risks to help the character, but they won't be terribly big risks. A diplomatic character might convince a reasonably honest merchant to invest in a business venture, or he might even convince a king to send a patrol somewhere. Both of those are risks. Convincing Joe the farmer to accompany him to slay the evil red wyrm Bobrillax? That's a risk no sane person would take, no matter how convincing.