Respect for the DM?

[buzz]

Or do both, since they're not mutually exclusive.

It's a valid point, though, as what's at issue here isn't respect for DMs; it's respect for Nikroecyst. There is no larger RPG issue here. This is a people issue within his group.

Granted, it may have been useful to hear this from other people, thus justifying the post.

Anyway, Nikroecyst: Talk to these people. List out your issues the same as you did here, and ask them what all of you, as a group, can maybe do about them. If it comes to not gaming with these people any more, so be it. If they're friends, they will understand, and be happy to hang out with you in other contexts (seeing movies, dinner, playing boardgames, etc).

 

[moritheil]

Don't tell us how you feel, tell your players.

So true.

The one I can really see protest on is the rule that will be changed as a one time thing. If there's anything players like more than the world making sense, it's consistency.

 

[jdrakeh]

If they're friends, they will understand, and be happy to hang out with you in other contexts (seeing movies, dinner, playing boardgames, etc).

That's an important point. In the past (as both a player and a GM) I have had this kind of compromise with several friends. For example, I recall a guy who was a horrible sportlight hog when gaming (so much so that every other player in a given group complained about him endlessly). On the other hand, I had a lot of fun going out for pizza, watching movies, and (at that time) attending parties with him. The guy was a great friend but not such a great person to roleplay with (unless you consdiered LARP -- for some reason, he was a blast to LARP with). Anyhow, we didn't have to quit being friends, we just quit tabletop gaming together.

 

[Oryan77]

1.) they get upset and claim that the encounter is "unfair" due to the fact that they have to work for thier treasure.

I've had players like this and I agree it is both frustrating and annoying. The only advice I truly feel will help solve this is, "Stop gaming with the person that acts like this and replace him with a new player." Not gaming with them was the only thing I was able to do to stop that from happening in our group. It worked great

Some gamers are just babies. If you're the type of DM that can't deal with a baby player, then you can't play with that person because they'll never change.

2.)Instead of simply telling you why they dont' like it and why its effects are too negetive, they go on a rant about how "dumb" it is, without citing a reason why.

I agree with a previous poster on this...it's hard to give advice without knowing if you really were fair with the ruling or if it was pretty half-assed. With 3e, I've learned to stay very close to the rules with very very little house rules. 3e gave birth to all kinds of new rules lawyers in D&D and it's just too hard to please everyone with custom rules. I had to learn to be a rules lawyer DM just to keep players from arguing with me during the game. 3e players are sticklers for the rules and that's just the way it is :\

3.) Isn't it a little disrespectful to assume that your DM is just skrewing you or not considering your opinion of what is fun?

As a DM, we don't need to justify & explain in detail why we make the decisions we make. If we don't want something in the campaign, that should be the end of it. I'll always respect the player and consider allowing whatever they want and listen to their reasonings on having it, but if I then tell them no, I shouldn't be made to feel guilty. I had a player tell me I was "nerfing" his PC because I wouldn't allow him to start his new mid-level PC with a magic item that would help powergame his PC. If he started at lvl 1, I would never put that item in the game for that PC to have because I don't give treasure that will lead to a powergamed PC. Him telling me I nerfed his PC pissed me off because it's not nerfing when the PC never had it to begin with! If I felt like arguing with him, I would have told him he's trying to nerf my campaign world by making demands in order to powergame his PC. But instead of arguing....he got the boot

4.) Last one, I promise. I get the attitude from my players, more often than not, that the game is them vs me.

A lot of players these days play like this. From what I've learned, a lot of these players are like this because they've had to play under DMs who are the same way. I've tried coaching these players so many times to trust me as a DM and stop acting like that, but it didn't help. It's really hard on a trustworthy DM because we look like jerks when we are DMing. One of these players actually thought I was indirectly insulting her while I roleplayed an A-hole NPC who was mouthing off to her. She thought I was being rude to her (while I was roleplaying) because she had gotten into a rules argument with me earlier in the session. I was thinking nothing of the sort and I really felt awful after the game when I put 2 & 2 together because she got extremely quiet the rest of the game & seemed depressed. The NPC had called her Minotaur PC "horribly ugly" along with other really harsh comments. It was all part of the scenario, but because her & her boyfriend were "player vs DM" types, I realized she must have thought I was taking my anger out on her. Maybe that's not why she got quiet, but I'm sure it was. They constantly accused me of doing things in-game in retaliation of what they did. They eventually left our group since our gaming styles were just so different.

An example of this is a paticular player who continously makes bad decisions and gets himself killed often (once every 3 games on average). He gets mad at me that "I" kill him or that my games are too tough.

Have you considered that maybe you are too hard on this player? Some players are very bad at survival and perform actions based on what they imagine from a movie. Sometimes they try to be more heroic than they should. Or sometimes they are just really bad in strategic combat. You can't DM every person the same. Some players need more hand holding, and some need to be hit upside the head sometimes. If the guy is dying a lot, it's a good sign that you should talk to him about it and help him figure out wtf is going on so he can improve next time. If he's being a bonehead, tell him that he needs to think his characters decisions through and stop being a bonehead. Idiots don't last long in life threatening situations....I don't care what Jar-Jar Binks says, he should've died within minutes of his first confrontation.

I feal heavily underappriciated and generally abused as a DM.

Welcome to the life of the DM. From my experience, the only way to not feel like that is to have great players who can also be thought of as friends. I've gamed with so many different players that I can safely say it's pretty much impossible to actually change people & meld them into more appreciative and respectful players that will also work well with your playstyle. People don't really change and if you really want to get that right group, you gotta keep finding new players and weed the bad ones out until you have a full group of good players.

Heck, as you can see from my sig, I'm still trying to find that 4th "perfect" player

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Why are you still DMing for these guys if they're insulting you and the work you put into the game?

 

[TheShedim]

So true.

The one I can really see protest on is the rule that will be changed as a one time thing. If there's anything players like more than the world making sense, it's consistency.

I have to agree here. The one time where I really ran into resistance for one of my DM decisions was making in arbitrary ruling based on how something seemed as a one time decision (whether or not someone could 5 ft. step from a seated position and if not what action would that be). While it would be easy to change rules however you may see fit, it is far better and agreeable for a change to be either explainable rationally or consistent with prior game rules.

 

[GammaPaladin]

First, I agree that your players are being disrespectful and don't seem to appreciate the work you put in.

On the "them vs me" issue, I would take a moment to point out to my players that if I were actively trying to kill their characters, they wouldn't make it past the first scene. Period.

That said...

If your players are consistently complaining about the difficulty, and at least one is dying very often... You might honestly need to consider dialing back the difficulty a bit.

Not to be snide but... CR is calculated for people who actually use reasonable tactics. If your group is err... challenged... in this area, then you need to reduce the CR of your encounters.

More importantly, if your group is complaining even when they win, it's quite likely they are simply beer and pretzels and kobolds to kill players.

Not every set of players even want a reasonable challenge. Some of them just want to be uber gods and basically waltz through their encounters leaving huge trails of dead creatures in their wake while collecting treasure that makes them even more godlike. If the balance of your group wants to play this way, running a different game is not going to make them happy, that's unfortunately just how it is.

 

[roguerouge]

I recommend running a module or an adventure path.

First, it sounds like you're getting a bit burnt out. Feeling frustrated and under-appreciated can be the fault of the players, but it usually takes two to tango. Running a module or an adventure path takes some of the work off your shoulders and allows you to cut loose and relax. Trust me, you're not cheating yourself or your players by using them. And it can be just as rewarding, especially if you integrate the material into an existing world of your own creation.

Second, when you have a module or adventure path, your players will really get that it's not DM vs. PC. Your roles as facilitator and arbiter are highlighted when you are not also the author. The more emotionally invested players will realize that you didn't kill their characters: those !#$!#$ at Paizo did. You didn't write those BBEGs with "unfair" bad-ass powers, they did.

Third, if you use these modules and adventure paths OUTSIDE YOUR CAMPAIGN WORLD, you can let them min-max to their heart's content for awhile. They'll need to do so to survive. A lot of modules and especially adventure paths feature really, really tough combats and cinematic villains to attract DMs.

 

[roguerouge]

Two last suggestions:

1. Roll out in the open. Now any hint of fudging is gone and it's a bad roll of the dice that killed their character. Let's face it, sometimes you need that excuse as a player. My guy died in the last session, and helped to actually see the crit roll.

2. Use action points. I'm a convert. They let your players have some modicum of control over the randomness of the dice. They let players say when they really want something to work. And you can house rule that you can spend an action point to automatically stabilize your character.

 

[roguerouge]

Have you considered that maybe you are too hard on this player? Some players are very bad at survival and perform actions based on what they imagine from a movie. Sometimes they try to be more heroic than they should. Or sometimes they are just really bad in strategic combat. You can't DM every person the same.

That's the truth. My player in my one PC campaign is a great role player, but she admits that she can lose track of her wide array of options: Combat Expertise, bardic music bonuses, items, etc. I started doing out index cards which seemed to help a bit. I tend to role play my ranger more "heroically" than "grim mercenary playing the odds" despite being in one campaign with a DM who's a tactical whiz. I should probably change that behavior.

Also, if player morale is poor, you might consider running a cake walk: let them be go-ram heroes and splatter the ordinary goblin tribal menace once in a while.