D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e

[Malmuria]

Which RPGs do you have in mind when you talk about adding blacksmiths to towns an such?

Ryuutama comes to mind, where when the party encounters a new town there's a set procedure and specific sheet for how to generate it as a group. A 5e DM could decide to do this, but I would guess it's not that common, as the expectation in 5e is that the DM is in charge of the world.

 

[Maxperson]

Which RPGs do you have in mind when you talk about adding blacksmiths to towns an such?

None specifically. I've just been in discussion where people give example of players authoring things within the world like towns, blacksmiths, etc. That's very different from "I cast a spell."

 

[prabe]

None specifically. I've just been in discussion where people give example of players authoring things within the world like towns, blacksmiths, etc. That's very different from "I cast a spell."

So, if a player asks, "Is there a blacksmith in this town," and the DM says, "Sure," who exactly is doing the authoring? I know what I think, and it's not intended as a trick question--I'm curious what your answer is.

 

[pemerton]

No, obviously, there is no plot, in a module the structure of which is:

• Day One: Events
• Day Two : Events
• Day Three: Events / Investigating the murder / Vincenz's plan
• Day Four: Exploring the Sea Maiden / The Plant / The Sea Maiden's First Attack / The Final Attack / Resolution

Are you going to claim that this whole synopsis of events (that you call a "situation", really makes me laugh) does not have a complete pre-scripted plot

What happens to Huxley? Selene? The other sailors? The PCs? What happens to the ships - the Sea Maiden, or the Albers?

None of these things is determined by the scenario. As I posted, the scenario is analogous to a threat clock in Apocalypse World. It doens't pressupose a plot.

Here is a post of mine from earlier this year, that closely reads two Prince Valiant episodes to make a similar point about the difference between a pre-scripted plot/railroad, and a complexly framed situation:

I will try and describe two Prince Valiant scenarios that mark the distinction I'm drawing, both found in the Episode Book.

The Crimson Bull, by Jerry Grayson, unfolds over multiple events in place as the PCs lead the bull of the title to the Vale of Mud. But these are really just extended framing - they don't presuppose particular prior decisions by the players other than to lead the bull to the Vale; and they provide colour and enrich the situation concerning the bull. The actual moment of crunch is in the finale, when the players (as their PCs) have to decide what to do with the bull and the pagan sacrifice of it by the wise woman of the Vale. I think it's a really well-conceived scenario.

A Prodigal Son - in Chains, by Mark Rein-Hagen, has some interesting elements but, as presented, is a railroad in the sense I've tried to set out above. The tell-tale in the writing is stuff like this:

At this point the Adventurers’ actions can have a direct impact on the story. They can meet with the yeomen leaders of the peasant army, try to sneak into the castle, run to get help from nearby nobles, or attack or harass the peasant army. Bryce does what they ask, but strongly requests that they let him speak with the peasant army.​

​

Whatever happened, you need to have things end up with Bryce’s father, the duke, dead. . . .​

​

Just as things seem to be winding down (one way or another) Bryce steps out of the crowd . . .​

​

At this point you need to have things wind up with someone trying to kill someone else as a result of the heated argument over what to do. It can be a peasant trying to kill a yeoman, Alia trying to kill Samson, Samson trying to kill an Adventurer; but no matter what happens, Bryce throws himself in the way . . .​

In other words, there are moments of choice that are thematically weighty (how do the PCs deal with the politics and associated dynamics between the "prodigal son", his father the duke and his sister Alia) which have to come out a certain way for the scenario to play out as presented. When I used the scenario I picked up some of the key story elements but just ignored all of Rein-Hagen's sequencing and railroading.

I've gone into this level of detail because I think we have to look very closely at the details of how situations and events are being presented, how they relate to thematic framing and resolution, etc, before we can start to identify whether or not we're looking at a railroad.

Also, I think what Jerry Grayson has done is not only better as RPG design (at least relative to my preferences) but displays more ingenuity as a RPG writer. I think it takes a lot of cleverness to set out an extended framing that builds up the pressure in the overarching situation but without forcing resolutions on the way through that then force railroading if the whole scenario is to be used. I can think of a few other published scenarios that pull this off - at least some of Robin Laws's in the Hero Wars Narrator's Book; and as a site-based version, some of those in a 3E-era d20 supplement called Wonders Out of Time (I can't remember the publisher).

Maiden Voyage is not identical in its structure to The Crimson Bull - it relies more heavily on the fact that the PCs are on a ship to facilitate framing; and as a result it places a bit more weight on the lead-up events (the captain's death, in particular) in setting up the ultimate situation, which is the encounter with the ghost ship. (Rereading my old thread, I saw this: The module has two attacks by the Sea Maiden, an initial skirmish and then a final assault, but I decided that it would be better to combine these into one. That's an example of removing elements of plot in order to focus on situation.)

But as I've already posted upthread, we can't talk sensibly about authority over the fiction, in a RPG, without distinguishing setting (there's a ghost ship in these parts) and backstory (the captain was killed by a ghost; the crew are superstitious of having a woman on board), from situation (you find the captain's dead body; you come across an abandoned ship - there are dead bodies trapped below its deck!), from outcomes (Huxley is saved from being hanged; the morale of the crew sinks ever-lower).

 

[pemerton]

None specifically. I've just been in discussion where people give example of players authoring things within the world like towns, blacksmiths, etc. That's very different from "I cast a spell."

All the examples like that that I'm familiar with are provided by people like you who have no specific RPGs in mind and are saying they don't do it and/or don't like it.

As @niklinna and I already discussed upthread, Apocalypse World has no such mechanics, despite people who are unfamiliar with it frequently asserting that it does. What it does have is an expectation of asking questions and building on the answers, but (i) this can be done in D&D (see eg the discussion in the 4e DMG2 of comparable techniques) and (ii) this is quite different from a player just stipulating that a blacksmith is present.

In Classic Traveller a player can declare a Streetwise check to meet up with a useful contact, supplier etc - but this requires a roll to be made; it is not fiat. Burning Wheel has mechanics comparable to Classic Traveller.

In Marvel Heroic RP, a player can spend a resource (under some constraints as to timing) to establish a contact, which then (i) opens up fictional positioning and (ii) provides a bonus die to action resolution. There is no unlimited fiat.

There's a reason that - as far as I know - no RPG gives players unlimited authority over backstory and situation: namely, because that significantly, perhaps completely, removes challenge and antagonism.

 

[pemerton]

So, if a player asks, "Is there a blacksmith in this town," and the DM says, "Sure," who exactly is doing the authoring? I know what I think, and it's not intended as a trick question--I'm curious what your answer is.

I can give you my answer: that's the GM accepting a player's suggestion. It's coauthorship.

 

[Maxperson]

So, if a player asks, "Is there a blacksmith in this town," and the DM says, "Sure," who exactly is doing the authoring? I know what I think, and it's not intended as a trick question--I'm curious what your answer is.

No. It's not a question by the player.

DM: "As you crest the hill, you see a town in the distance."

Player 1: "Excellent. This is Gainesville and I know the blacksmith Barty there."

Prior to player 1 making that statement, the town had been unnamed(not even the DM knew its name) and no blacksmith was set, let alone as a named friend. The player authored that in the moment.

 

[Maxperson]

I can give you my answer: that's the GM accepting a player's suggestion. It's coauthorship.

As it has been described to me by those who play that style of game, the DM cannot override that. The blacksmith being there is pure player authorship.

 

[pemerton]

Ryuutama comes to mind, where when the party encounters a new town there's a set procedure and specific sheet for how to generate it as a group. A 5e DM could decide to do this, but I would guess it's not that common, as the expectation in 5e is that the DM is in charge of the world.

AD&D had a system like this, in OA. The only example Gygax gives in his DMG of a player making a suggestion about local geography is also an example of the GM saying "yes" because there is nothing outrageous about the player's suggestion. I think these examples, which now are over 30 and in the second case over 40 years old, are enough to show that it's not foreign to D&D.

 

[prabe]

No. It's not a question by the player.

DM: "As you crest the hill, you see a town in the distance."

Player 1: "Excellent. This is Gainesville and I know the blacksmith Barty there."

Prior to player 1 making that statement, the town had been unnamed(not even the DM knew its name) and no blacksmith was set, let alone as a named friend. The player authored that in the moment.

Sure. In that instance--if that's how the table is playing--the player is authoring stuff. That is, best I can tell, an unusual way for a TRPG to operate, for reasons @pemerton has summarized just upthread.

In the example I gave it's plausibly more joint--the DM is saying "yes" to the player's suggestion. This seems to be more within the way things are likely to work. Certainly, D&D 5E can be played this way.