Response from wotc: Kensi signature weapons break VoPoverty

[drnuncheon]

Not to try to discredit your opinion or Darrin's for that matter, I just want to be able to comprehend it all. Why then are Tatooed monks Tatooes which are also a class ability, emulate spells, and posessed in much the same manner a monks body are (even moreso since they need to be acquired from something outside of him/herself) allowed ?

Again, from a balance/intent of the rules perspective:

The tattooed monk's abilities are class abilities in the same way a fighter's feats or a rogue's evasion are - that is, they are meant to be in addition to the character's equipment.

The kensai's special ability is, at its base, an ability to enhance your equipment, the fact that it can be used on yourself notwithstanding.

Vow of Poverty gives you the ability to give up the equipment for more innate bonuses.

So basically, the kensai VoP monk gets the base class abilities, the VoP abilities, and (effectvely) equipment bonuses, all because a class in one supplement was not written to take all other supplements into consideration. It may be by the letter of the rules, but anyone who rules strictly by the letter is going to find himself with a) a game spiraling out of control and b) nonsensical rulings. ("It's pitch black? I cast darkness so I can see!")

J

 

[Pax]

I don't think I would allow VoP to work for a monk/kensai because it violates the spirit of the vow. A person with VoP is not supposed to have magic items period, allowing a monk to obtain a magic weapon by becoming a Kensai is circumventing the rules to create an extremely powerful combination. Unbalanced even for my tastes.

Except Vow of Poverty provides exactly that: magic weapons. Even manufactured ones!

An ascetic is allowed to have, adn wield, a single simple weapon. For example, a quarterstaff (a simple double weapon, no less). Let's say our 20th level ascetic - a high level fighter or some such - has the entire TWF feat chain.

And every attack - with both ends of the double weapon - is made with a +5 weapon. That's what Exalted Strike does, in as many words: "In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon". Actually, at 20th level, replace that +1 with a +5.

Yet, Mr. Drader would have us believe that having the benefits of a magic weapon from any source, in any way, violates the Vow of Poverty.

So, doesn't that mean the Vow of Poverty itself violates the Vow of Poverty?

And then there is the fact that, based on what Mr. Drader has stated, ONLY a Monk who imbues his unarmed strikes would violate the Vow of Peace; a Fighter with the Unarmed Strike feat, or with natural weapons of his own, would not.

So then - why does a (for example) human monk/kensai ascetic violate their vow by imbuing their fists, while a half-dragon fighter/kensai ascetic who imbues his claws, does not violate their vow?

Why does a Monk/Kensai violate the vow of peace by imbuing their fists as signature weapons, but a Monk/Tattooed Monk with five magical tattoos doesn't ... ?

There are too many holes, too many failures oflogic, for Mr. Drader's ruling to make sense. And if it doesn't make sense ...

...

As for gaining +9 "worth" of special abilities "for free", as James objected to: so what? Archers can do that, easily and just as much for "free" ... and then some! Take a Bow with +1 enhancement and +9 in special abilities. Have your friendly cleric throw a Greater Magic Weapon spell on the bow. *poof* same effect.

And a non-ascetic Monk/Kensai could do that, too. Imbue their unarmed strikes with +1 enhancement, +9 abilities ... then, if there's no friendly cleric willing to blow a couple GMW's, just buy a +5 amulet of mighty fists. *poof*, again.

In the case of a Kensai who imbues their natural weapons or unarmed attacks, I see no reason to call the result a "material possession" or "magic item" in any sense of either term, that would lead to concluding the Vow of Poverty was violated.

That road leads to ascetic spellcasters of all stripes voiding their Vow simply by casting permanency, at the most basic possible level. And other strangeness, like "what is the difference between the kensai's signature weapon ability and the tattoo'd monk's magic tattoos, when the kensai umbues his own body?"

 

[Trainz]

Obviously the design for most D&D books is for levels 1-20. I do agree that an epic continuation of the Vow of Poverty is a good idea. Otherwise you are left in a situation where you either get left behind in power level or you break the vow out of necessity. Granted, at such a high level it isn't that difficult to earn enough money through adventuring to make up for the magic equipment you've been missing, but it still would count as a lost feat.

Anyway, I'll talk to the web team and see if they're interested in an epic continuation of the Vow of Poverty. It would probably boil down to little more than a repeating pattern of bonuses, but I feel that it's a good idea. I'll have to give it some more thought.

That'd be great !

A web enhancement would be just the thing. Thanks for considering it !

 

[Deset Gled]

Again, from a balance/intent of the rules perspective:

...

It may be by the letter of the rules, but anyone who rules strictly by the letter is going to find himself with a) a game spiraling out of control and b) nonsensical rulings.

Honestly, I don't see combining the monk and Kensai to be all that powerful, even with VoP.

First, consider the prerequisite of Combat Expertise. This requires the monk to have an Int of 13 or above. Considering the fact that Int and Cha are the closest thing the monk has to a dump stat, this is going to make him spread his abilities thinner than they already are.

Next, consider what the monk gets from the Kensai: he can attack as though he had +10 worth of bonuses with his natural attack. Considering that VoP will already grant a +5 enhancement bonus at level 20, this translates into the monk geting +9 worth of special powers on his attacks. Also, he gets a surge-like ability usable a couple of times a day, and some intersting social benefits. All in all, some nice combat abilities that you're paying 10 levels and extra XP to get.

Now, look at what the monk is giving up by taking the prestige class instead of the monk class: 1d10 worth of damage, a better flurry, good fort and reflex saves, +30 ft of speed, a better Ki Strike, immunity to poison, dimension door, spell resistance, a death attack, immunity to aging, free languages, the ability to go ethereal, damage reduction 10/magic, and a point of BAB to boot. Pretty much everything that makes a monk a monk.

Do you think that +9 worth of special attacking powers and a surge ability is worth all that? I can think of a few situations where it would be, but overall, it's not much of an advantage. And in the situations where it is an advantage, it's because the character has effectively become a decent damage dealer instead of the second-line melee type that the monk is normally forced into. Different than a standard monk, yes. Overpowered, hardly. (FWIW, I haven't seen too many builds with VoP that seem overpowered. The ones that are really amazing are actually druids. VoP turns Wildshape into a much nastier beast than the monk will ever be, Kensai or not.)

So, in conclusion, I think that the knee-jerk reaction to stop the Kensai from working with a monk and VoP for power reasons to be kind of silly. (I will admit, I haven't playtested it, so this is strictly a theoretical comparison). Furthermore, the "nonsensical rulings" that you mention are only coming up because people are trying to find a way to make the Kensai not work with VoP. Seems to me like a case of people cutting off their nose in spite of their face, not realizing that their face wasn't even that bad to begin with.

 

[Piratecat]

[I apologize for my earlier confusion, because Darrin is absolutely credited on the Book of Exalted Deeds -- and he wrote the web enhancement for Complete Warrior. That'll teach me not to actually look at the dang cover when I check something. I feel stupid.]

I'd like to see a web enhancement for VoP, too. That'd be useful.

 

[James McMurray]

As for gaining +9 "worth" of special abilities "for free", as James objected to: so what? Archers can do that, easily and just as much for "free" ... and then some! Take a Bow with +1 enhancement and +9 in special abilities. Have your friendly cleric throw a Greater Magic Weapon spell on the bow. *poof* same effect.

#1, those are not free (monetarily speaking).
#2, an archer with a Vow of Poverty could do that, but he would violate his vow.

Next, consider what the monk gets from the Kensai: he can attack as though he had +10 worth of bonuses with his natural attack. Considering that VoP will already grant a +5 enhancement bonus at level 20, this translates into the monk geting +9 worth of special powers on his attacks. Also, he gets a surge-like ability usable a couple of times a day, and some intersting social benefits. All in all, some nice combat abilities that you're paying 10 levels and extra XP to get.

The Kensai Monk can afford to have a lower dexterity, because his reflex saves and AC will both be based on wisdom via the Kensai's ability to replace reflex saves with concentration checks. This means a monk with evasion and maxed concentration is going to be nearly impossible to tag with a reflex save granting effect.

You also brush aside +9 worth of bonuses as if they do not matter. However, those +9 worth of bnonuses are something that the VoP's balance assumes you will never be able to receive. The VoP already works out favorably on a cost basis and a "my pseudo-gear can't be destroyed basis." Its primary balancing factor is that the abilities you gain are set in stone, and thus nowhere near as customizable as sening your character's earned cash on magic items. Geting +9 worth of weapon abilities breaks that balance.

Do you think that +9 worth of special attacking powers and a surge ability is worth all that?

In many campaigns, adding Axiomatic and Holy to your fists will be a better deal than +1d10 damage. you also manage to duplicat the effects of Ki Strike (Holy) and Ki Strike (Lawful). Ki Strike (Adamantine) can be worked around with a clerical spell. Alternatively one can add Metalline and Sure Striking to their unarmed strikes and bypass practically all DRs (you won't be able to get around DR of x/piercing, and x/slashing will have to wait for epic levels, unless there is a weapon ability out there that changes damage types that I haven't seen). These enhancements only cost +6. Add another +1 for Ghost Touch, +1 for Impact. That still leaves you +1 to play with (I like Merciful for flavor purposes, but there are probably more powerful options available).

When your speed is already at a base of 60', there is not much reason to increase it to 90' unless you are going to take the Spring Attack path of feats.

Heroes' Feast (especially extended) is a great way to ignore poison).

Spell Resistance is also attainable via a spell (and at a slightly higher bonus).

Quivering Palm is rarely a factor in most games (the guys that will make their saves are the only guys that you really want to to use it on).

The other losses (etherelaness and dimension door) are definitely painful, but not terribly so. And your incredible increase in combat capabilities more than makes up for it IMO.

 

[Pax]

#1, those are not free (monetarily speaking).

A Kensai, however, could. A Kensai with a longbow as his signature weapon, and a friendly cleric to cast GMW onhis bow, could do exactly that. And what's more, his bow wouldn't count against his wealth totals, either - so he'd still have the FULL compliment of gear, beyond the signature weapon.

And then there are Arcane Archers. They don't even need the friendly cleric (their arrows count as up to +5).

Nor would it have to be a bow. A sword would work just as admirably for that purpose.

[/quote]
#2, an archer with a Vow of Poverty could do that, but he would violate his vow.
[/quote]
Only if he's a crossbowman. You can't have a non-crossbow archer, and not violate the VoP inherently (shortbows and longbows are, neither of them, simple weapons).

The Kensai Monk can afford to have a lower dexterity, because his reflex saves and AC will both be based on wisdom via the Kensai's ability to replace reflex saves with concentration checks. This means a monk with evasion and maxed concentration is going to be nearly impossible to tag with a reflex save granting effect.

Whuch has no bearing ont eh Vow of Poverty; that is an issue with the Kensai itself, and irrelevant to whether or not the Kensai's signature weapon ability inherently voids the Vow of Poverty.

You also brush aside +9 worth of bonuses as if they do not matter. However, those +9 worth of bnonuses are something that the VoP's balance assumes you will never be able to receive. The VoP already works out favorably on a cost basis and a "my pseudo-gear can't be destroyed basis."

The Kensai's signature weapn would be "gear" above and beyond what ANYone could have, for a (mild) XP cost.

Its primary balancing factor is that the abilities you gain are set in stone, and thus nowhere near as customizable as sening your character's earned cash on magic items. Geting +9 worth of weapon abilities breaks that balance.

signature weapon is not a Vow of Poverty benefit, so flexibility or lack thereof is a nonissue.

An Ascetic Cleric/Sorceror/Theurge would also be extremely flexible. Should flexibility of abilities be added to the list of things that void the Vow of Poverty,now ... ?

In many campaigns, adding Axiomatic and Holy to your fists will be a better deal than +1d10 damage. you also manage to duplicat the effects of Ki Strike (Holy) and Ki Strike (Lawful).

Again, that is an issue with the Kensai, not withthe Vow of Poverty. Those abilities will be equally valuable, from a game mechanics standpoint, wether the Monk/Kensai takes the Vow of Poverty, or hoards wealth in a manner to impress even the most jaded True Dragon. *shrug*

Ki Strike (Adamantine) can be worked around with a clerical spell.

As can Ki Strike (lawful), actually - the spell is called align weapon.

Alternatively one can add Metalline and Sure Striking to their unarmed strikes and bypass practically all DRs (you won't be able to get around DR of x/piercing, and x/slashing will have to wait for epic levels, unless there is a weapon ability out there that changes damage types that I haven't seen).

Metalline, actually, doesn't work for nonmetal weapons. It allows weapons to transform from one kind of metal, to anotehr. Last I checked, "flesh" wasn't a type of metal. So unless the monk/kensai in question is a half-iron-golem, that ability would be an ineffectual choice for an unarmed Kensai.

And you appear to have missed my own note - that I owuld count the +5 enhancement from the Exalted Strike ability against the Kensai's +10 limit. I'd probably allow the character to take +1 worth of non-enhancement abilities per two Kensai levels (round down), if they had the Vow of Poverty. But only for the cost of the +1 to +5 of abilities they were actually getting - they wouldn't have to pay for the Exalted Strike enhancement bonus twice.

 

[Krafen]

Ki Strike (Adamantine) can be worked around with a clerical spell.

Which spell does this? I seem to have missed it.

 

[James McMurray]

Only if he's a crossbowman. You can't have a non-crossbow archer, and not violate the VoP inherently (shortbows and longbows are, neither of them, simple weapons).

Right, so what bearing do archers and their arrows have on a discussion about the Vow of Poverty? You can have a crossbowman with VoP, and with Rapid Reload he would be a viable character. But he couldn't enhance his crossbow, with or without being a Kensai.

Why should a monk / kensai be able to amass more power than an archer / kensai, or quuterstaff using kensai? The same of course would apply to a druid with VoP enhancing his wildshape natrual weapons, or a half-dragon, or any of the other many possibiliities besides just the monk. All it does is make one of the best fits for VoP even better.

Whuch has no bearing ont eh Vow of Poverty; that is an issue with the Kensai itself, and irrelevant to whether or not the Kensai's signature weapon ability inherently voids the Vow of Poverty.

Right again. You'll note I never tried to tie it to Vow of Poverty. It was quite obviously a direct reply to Deset Gled's post about the things that a monk gains when becoming a Kensai.

Again, that is an issue with the Kensai, not withthe Vow of Poverty. Those abilities will be equally valuable, from a game mechanics standpoint, wether the Monk/Kensai takes the Vow of Poverty, or hoards wealth in a manner to impress even the most jaded True Dragon. *shrug*

They are even more valuable to a VoP monk, who must otherwise expect to be eaten alive by DR.

As can Ki Strike (lawful), actually - the spell is called align weapon.

Right again. Looks like you're on a roll. I was pointing out reasons that a monk won't mind losing Ki Strike (Adamantine) when he takes levels of Kensai. What's your point?

And you appear to have missed my own note - that I owuld count the +5 enhancement from the Exalted Strike ability against the Kensai's +10 limit. I'd probably allow the character to take +1 worth of non-enhancement abilities per two Kensai levels (round down), if they had the Vow of Poverty. But only for the cost of the +1 to +5 of abilities they were actually getting - they wouldn't have to pay for the Exalted Strike enhancement bonus twice.

So you too think that Kensai + VoP is unbalanced and are seeking an alternative? Cool. Your version is apparently farther from the designer's view of how the VoP should work than mine is, but if it works for your games, that's all that matters.

I had missed that bit about Metalline weapons (that's what happens when I post from work). Butthat just means that a VoP monk is really hampered by DR. IIRC Kensai would at least allow him to get around DR x/silver (with the True Silver enhancement from Ghostwalk).

Krafen: The spell is called Touch of Adamantine. It is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. It overrides the weapon's material qualities with those of admantine for the duration.

 

[Will]

I've been thinking that for balance purposes, creating a special category for 'magic items' of 'blessings.'

Something like x2 cost (slotless), and fold it in along the lines of: I didn't buy X, I gave my money to the temples.