D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

[Willie the Duck]

At the risk of embarrassing myself...
OP is looking at a design system closer to an MMO, but without the video games limitations. Specifically;
Resources (health, mana, etc) and pool based and doing things (getting hit, casting spells) deplete them. Resources do recharge, but slowly (you get a few points back for rest, but nothing akin to a long rest or even most short rests).
Instead, resources recharge by doing things (eating food restores some health, potions restore mana). The things you do are tied to a foraging and crafting system. If you don't want to craft, you can rely on found/stolen things or just buy them with gold.
What I get is a gameplay loop similar to New World (minus the PvP) where resource management and risk assessment (is it worth it to go to the Caves of Darkness for troll's blood, even though that makes the best healing potions) are as important as quests. PCs don't insta-heal and maintain the same 10 days rations that they got at level 1 somehow.
At least that's what I think. I await being chastised for not understanding it if I'm wrong.

Okay, working off the assumption that this is mostly correct, I will build some points off of it.
Firstly, this seems like a perfectly reasonable game to desire to have exist. There's good reason (beyond historical ones) why there's a lot of crossover between TTRPGs and computer games. If there's something that people enjoy in a computer game, at least some of those people will also like doing the same basic thing*, but where a living GM can curate the scenarios and such. I myself enjoy a nice survivalism game, although my group has built one with a different set of assumptions/preferences.
*Computers have the advantage of being able to easily track lots of changing details, so there are some computer games will simply be too fiddly or crunchy or tedious to hand-track. That said, there are people who really like GURPS 3e Vehicles, so that 'too' fiddly is pretty variable. I can see tracking multiple components to make individual potions or the like, but if your computer game also tracks how fresh each unit of each component is, and that influences final-result-efficacy, I think you've found a computer game not meant for pen & paper.
Second, this seems like a change significant enough that I don't know why one would want to choose D&D as a base for it. D&D is resilient to modification, inasmuch as you can do things like switch to the Gritty recharge rules in 5e and most things still work with some winners and losers around the edges (mage armor stops being a worthwhile spell, for example), but not necessarily when you change fundamental building blocks like putting all expendable (non-HP) resources into the same pool. The closest I can think of is 3e Psionics, which used a psionic-point system (having all the different 'spells' of different levels draw from the same pool), it worked within the self-set-limits within which it constrained itself, but even there it worked significantly because it limited what it tried to tackle (and where it didn't, such as utilizing 3e shapeshifting rules, is where it was closest to 'broken'). Trying to pull in Druid/Bard/martial/other special powers into a framework like that (and then having even D&D's existing level of inter-role balance) would be tantamount to building a new game. Hero System, or the like, at least starts with 'everything from the same resources pool' premise (even if the natural recharge defaults to minutes instead of 'so long you build potions to quicken things'), and might be a better starting point.

Rest gives back energy which is a resource. Tying spell and hit point recovery to rest very much retains verisimilitude. Getting rid of it destroys verisimilitude.

No it doesn't.

Rest gives back physical energy and attention (and some level of physical resilience*). What gives back any other kind of non-magical resources is already a little bit of a problem for verisimilitude because I (and I think others) don't have a good answer for (ex.) how a barbarian can't rage again today without also being too tired to <lots of other things they still get to do before resting>. What gives back Spell Resource** is entirely dependent upon the metaphysics of the game world (if living creatures are some kind of magic accumulator or the like, it could be pure time with no consideration to rest). I think the instant we start talking about verisimilitude, we run roughshod into the problem that no two of us are going to have the same picture of what magic 'should' be like, what those barbarian rages represent, or anything like that.
*noting the 'what portion of HP is wounds?' factor, but moving on without comment.
**Tired of calling it Mana

 

[Maxperson]

Rest gives back physical energy and attention (and some level of physical resilience*). What gives back any other kind of non-magical resources is already a little bit of a problem for verisimilitude because I (and I think others) don't have a good answer for (ex.) how a barbarian can't rage again today without also being too tired to <lots of other things they still get to do before resting>. What gives back Spell Resource** is entirely dependent upon the metaphysics of the game world (if living creatures are some kind of magic accumulator or the like, it could be pure time with no consideration to rest). I think the instant we start talking about verisimilitude, we run roughshod into the problem that no two of us are going to have the same picture of what magic 'should' be like, what those barbarian rages represent, or anything like that.
*noting the 'what portion of HP is wounds?' factor, but moving on without comment.
**Tired of calling it Mana

I tend to think it's the opposite. If it isn't known exactly what gives back magical resources, then what we come up with has a greater chance of making sense to people and being accepted, which is what verisimilitude is. It's something that makes sense for the situation.

Rest gives back physical energy and mental energy, so why not magical energy? It makes sense! Potions on the other hand have long been associated with video games which while they are technically RPGs(and technically is the best kind of correct), they really are not anything like a sit down RPG. What you need for a video game is very different from what you would need in D&D.

Potions as the primary way to get back magical resources is more likely in my opinion to break verisimilitude than to create it, unlike resting.

I do agree with you about having a variety of different resources that are rest dependent. That can be jarring and unexplainable, though not necessarily so.

 

[SteveC]

Something that I just simply cannot comprehend is why people who likes 4E is spending all their time trying to "fix" 5E into being more like 4E. Why not just play 4E? My group went back to 2E during 4E for pretty much this exact reason.

Let me explain: there are many, many threads and discussions about the adventuring day along with resource recovery in 5E. Many of the fixes involve rules that harken back to 4E, which was designed around a balanced adventuring day and really worked. So it's natural to use that as a comparison.

You might not think that 5E has any adventuring day/healing/resource restoration issues and if so, and I guess if that's the case you wouldn't want any changes made. For those who do "go play another game" isn't all that helpful.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I tend to think it's the opposite. If it isn't known exactly what gives back magical resources, then what we come up with has a greater chance of making sense to people and being accepted, which is what verisimilitude is. It's something that makes sense for the situation.

As in, the game states what magic is and how it comes back, and people have no cause to say otherwise (since it's made up either way)? I agree. However, since there is no right or wrong answer, people can readily have a preference about which system they want, and there's not much one can say in response that negates that preference for them. If OP thinks potions make more sense than resting, there is a game world metaphysics which makes it so.

Rest gives back physical energy and mental energy, so why not magical energy? It makes sense! Potions on the other hand have long been associated with video games which while they are technically RPGs(and technically is the best kind of correct), they really are not anything like a sit down RPG. What you need for a video game is very different from what you would need in D&D.

Of D&D, yes, and I stand by the position that these changes make more sense with a new RPG than trying to hammer D&D into the shape where this fits. However, I think your skipping over the justification for resting making more sense than resting. Why should the recovery of magical energy match the recovery of physical and mental energy? Why is being associated with video games mean potion recovery is anything other than neutral towards TTRPG applicability? There are cases to be made for each of these, but they need to be made.
Side note: it's often not clear when people use "technically correct, the best kind of correct" whether they realize that the Futurama scene was making fun of people who thought that way.

Potions as the primary way to get back magical resources is more likely in my opinion to break verisimilitude than to create it, unlike resting.

Okay, understood. That is your position. Why is that?

I do agree with you about having a variety of different resources that are rest dependent. That can be jarring and unexplainable, though not necessarily so.

Yeah, the 'you don't have the energy to ______, but you can still run a marathon before you rest' is one of the issues I have with giving martials limited use special moves (counterbalanced by the alternative being magic items or magic users being usually better, or all the other reasons fighters have slowly been accumulating such things). In general I just let it lie, remember that combat is abstracted, and ignore any verisimilitude breaks. Hero System, mentioned above, does better in that you are expending 'Endurance' to do your fancy things, and everything (including running and lifting) uses END. Probably not a good solution for OP, though, as just sitting and resting recovers your whole pool in minutes unless you have the most outlandish character build (incredible END pool, high cost powers, and minimal REC). Slowing everything down enough that anyone would bother with a potion-making system would make regular physical activity too burdensome for anyone without the potions (maybe make special powers be a separate END pool).

 

[Maxperson]

As in, the game states what magic is and how it comes back, and people have no cause to say otherwise (since it's made up either way)? I agree. However, since there is no right or wrong answer, people can readily have a preference about which system they want, and there's not much one can say in response that negates that preference for them. If OP thinks potions make more sense than resting, there is a game world metaphysics which makes it so.

For sure and if he had just said in the OP, "This is how I like it, what do you think?" it wouldn't have received the opposition that it did. Instead, though, he came here and basically announced that resting as the recovery method was bad and said that it should be changed for the game into potions.

Of D&D, yes, and I stand by the position that these changes make more sense with a new RPG than trying to hammer D&D into the shape where this fits. However, I think your skipping over the justification for resting making more sense than resting. Why should the recovery of magical energy match the recovery of physical and mental energy? Why is being associated with video games mean potion recovery is anything other than neutral towards TTRPG applicability? There are cases to be made for each of these, but they need to be made.

Potions just smacked of convenience which is a necessity in a video game where you are constantly on the go, but doesn't make a lot of sense to me as the primary method of magic energy recovery in a sit down RPG.

Side note: it's often not clear when people use "technically correct, the best kind of correct" whether they realize that the Futurama scene was making fun of people who thought that way.

Yep! Love Futurama. I'm debating binging it again as it has been years since I've watched it.

Okay, understood. That is your position. Why is that?

Mainly because if you needed potions to restore magical energy, magic would likely never have been discovered. A little experimentation and your energy would be gone before you could get anything truly right and then it wouldn't come back. Resting should be the primary method of restoration and potions as a secondary and costly method for emergencies could be put into place.

Just being able to chug potions, though, makes magic way too potent unless you place an artificial restraint on the number of potions similar to the physical limitations you mention below. That just creates more of that kind of problem, though.

Yeah, the 'you don't have the energy to ______, but you can still run a marathon before you rest' is one of the issues I have with giving martials limited use special moves (counterbalanced by the alternative being magic items or magic users being usually better, or all the other reasons fighters have slowly been accumulating such things). In general I just let it lie, remember that combat is abstracted, and ignore any verisimilitude breaks. Hero System, mentioned above, does better in that you are expending 'Endurance' to do your fancy things, and everything (including running and lifting) uses END. Probably not a good solution for OP, though, as just sitting and resting recovers your whole pool in minutes unless you have the most outlandish character build (incredible END pool, high cost powers, and minimal REC). Slowing everything down enough that anyone would bother with a potion-making system would make regular physical activity too burdensome for anyone without the potions (maybe make special powers be a separate END pool).

Yeah. Some sort of endurance pool where the physical abilities have a set cost. As an arbitrary example, 30 for Action Surge, 5 for a combat maneuver, 10 for indomitable, etc. Perhaps you can't use an ability that costs more than 50% of your remaining stamina, so if you are down to 40 you can't action surge, but could still use indomitable. It makes sense that a big thing you might be too tired for, but can still do some of the less taxing abilities. Who knows. We have the system we have and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Emberashh]

Computers have the advantage of being able to easily track lots of changing details,

Perhaps one is clever enough to think up a system that eliminates this particular issue?

In LNO (my game), I managed to get around this by having the two Energy bars/pools/whatever go down at a set rate equal to the correlating Energy modifier.

So max Energy mod is +15 (with the bar itself maxing out at 525), so any basic action that consumes Energy drains 15 of that energy, and this can be modified by modifiers attached to whatever ability.

Some take less, others take more, and Ive also set up a number of abilities, including basic actions and reactions, that have a set cost separate from the Energy mod, which is meant to both be an option when you run out, and to eat up any odd stray Energy that gets restored by potions or some other source.

Done this way it becomes pretty straight forward to track usage.

I actually even had the idea of having the player roll for their energy turn by turn, similarly to how they already have to roll for their movement (the same 2d20 roll that governs their Act and React determines their base movement for the round), but this proved to be a little too weird, though it did speed things up even more and made for some hectic feeling fights.

It also had the issue that you really had to be comfortable with everything your character could do; very easy to get decision paralysis when you don't know ahead of time what you'll even be able to use.

Second, this seems like a change significant enough that I don't know why one would want to choose D&D as a base for it

Because DND is held back by its crummy rest system thats, ultimately, fundamentally flawed, even in games where its done well and doesn't get in the way.

If OP thinks potions make more sense than resting, there is a game world metaphysics which makes it so.

People seem to keep ignoring the point Ive been making about fully segregating survival. Having to sleep is survival.

Potions is a system that can then step in and provide a functional way to maintain a resource attrition system in the core of the game, which happens to still make a hell of a lot sense given we already have magical potions in the game, some of which do the same things the new potion system would be doing.

Is it the only system? No. We can just skip the resource attrition idea outright aside from the minimum of HP and combat can be balanced by difficulty, strategy, and perhaps a more involved Wounds system.

Also has to be said re: survival is that survival should be a more interactable and visible part of the game if we're going to insist upon it. Rests as they exist now don't qualify.

Their visible, mechanical representation is summed up as a proverbial checkmark in the DMs notes that says the players can reset their stuff.

That isn't very interesting at all.

Whereas a potion system could be made indepth enough that it provides gameplay opportunities beyond just resetting resources. Questing for ingredients is a natural consequence, and they obviously open up a number of classes that are otherwise underserved by the absence of a substantive potion system; your Alchemist, Poisoner, and Bomb making types, for instance, all get a hell of a lot deeper and more fun to play.

There isn't a single class that suddenly becomes possible, nevermind more fun, by a Rest system.

Why is being associated with video games

People have a weird holier than thou look towards video games as though TTRPGs are somehow fundamentally distinct, when they really arent. Hell, a number of early CRPGs were literally just DND copied near verbatim. TES games are descended from Runequest. Etc.

People forget that TTRPGs are, in fact, games, hence the "G".

Yeah, the 'you don't have the energy to ______, but you can still run a marathon before you rest'

This again brings up one of the earliest points I made in this topic. It you're already skipping survival, which most tables are, then you're basically doublethinking if you're taking issue with that situation.

"My character hasn't eaten or drank water in who knows how long because we don't care about doing all that, but I will freak out if my character doesn't get his biologically required sleep".

Either you go all the way with survival or don't bother. This weird halfway house people are trying to occupy is bizarre and just reeks of confirmation bias.

I mentioned verisimilitude in the OP to acknowledge the issue people can have with things like safe haven rules, bar none the most common fix to problems with the Rest system in DND, and people hooked onto that to try and act like I'm the one who has a problem with verisimilitude, while all the while cherry picking what survival elements are absolutely imperative to have in the game, if they even acknowledge that their clinging to a survival mechanic at all.

Instead, though, he came here and basically announced that resting as the recovery method was bad and said that it should be changed for the game into potions.

It is bad and should be replaced, as evidenced by the continuing problems people have with it.

QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 9010069, member: 23751"]
Mainly because if you needed potions to restore magical energy, magic would likely never have been discovered.
[/QUOTE]

There are very few games that use a Mana system where it doesn't recover over time if you can afford to sit there, and in the ones that do it, its either considered plain bad, or its counterbalanced by way of getting more mana than normal. (Morrowind for instance ironically does both simultaneously)

But that natural recovery isn't viable to rely on for combat, which as Im sure everyone is aware, is the main thing in DND and similar TTRPGs that would be draining magic resources (in whatever forn that takes).

If you're in a dungeon, potions make a lot more sense than taking a nap, for obvious reasons, as it would in a battlefield, a siege, or what have you.

If you're travelling, or barely use up your magic for the day regardless, then sure, take a nap and/or just wait around, and save the potions for when you can't afford to wait.

Something else to consider is that these systems also necessitate more visceral combat. Theres generally not a lot of big, one-off nukes like you see in most of the good DND spells. Instead you have more consistent, lower power spells that you run as a staple, and you weave in other spell types to suit the situation. You might (and I do in LNO) also have spells be useful offensively and defensively; that same Fire Lash can be used to bash people sure, but if the Ogre is about to cave in your skull, you can go for a disarm with it to protect yourself. Stuff like that.

The big one off nukes that would still exist would, in turn, be more consequentially awesome yet limited. The classic Fireball could be as far more devastating as it is draining to your ability to fight on.

Overall, it makes for more interesting combat.

 

[Maxperson]

Would someone please tell Emberashh that if he is going to block me that he needs to stop quoting me? If he wants the interaction to be separate, he needs to keep it separate. Thanks!

 

[Bagpuss]

Would someone please tell Emberashh that if he is going to block me that he needs to stop quoting me? If he wants the interaction to be separate, he needs to keep it separate. Thanks!

LOL, Emberashh used the same tactic on me. It's the wonderful block feature that lets you win every debate by only seeing your side of it.

How they cope with the real world is a mystery.

 

[Remathilis]

Would someone please tell Emberashh that if he is going to block me that he needs to stop quoting me? If he wants the interaction to be separate, he needs to keep it separate. Thanks!

That's cold man. Not cool.

 

[eyeheartawk]

LOL, Emberashh used the same tactic on me. It's the wonderful block feature that lets you win every debate by only seeing your side of it.

How they cope with the real world is a mystery.

Whatever, you're all just mad. He uninvited you from his birthday party too. And, his dad can beat up your dad!