D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

[SteveC]

No its a problem with class design. You have to keep in mind the context here is that we've addressed (in my previous postd) the adventuring day by accounting for the underlying math and for things it didn't originally include.

With those fixes assumed, then an issue of class design becomes purely an issue of class design. The adventuring day in this context is running as it should, and now some other aspect of the game (which was already visibly bad, mind) is problematic.

Okay, looks like we have a fundamental disagreement here, so I hope you're able to make those changes and have a fun game.

 

[Pedantic]

It seems like all of this ties into what an adventuring day is and what it's supposed to look like. Are characters supposed to be at full hit points when they start every encounter? How many encounters are they expected to do between that long rest and reset?

{...}

I think the ultimate point is that the game doesn't give us clear indications of the design of the adventuring day and that's a problem. What are the expectations? How often should characters be able to take short rests? How many encounters should you build for as a GM based on the environment? The discussions about this that I've read just don't really match up with what I see in actual play and, more to the point, they aren't consistent and fun. It seems like a lot of GMs grumble about short rests at an hour from a realism standpoint, but what they really are is a balancing mechanism for different classes, and a chance to heal without spell slots. Let's make that clear upfront on a system level, please!

All of the discussion in this thread just tells me there's some design work that either wasn't really thought out or wasn't communicated very well.

This is the fundamental problem, both that expectations aren't clear, are often contraindicated by adventure design, and seem unrealistic when they are presented in plain terms. Short rests, unfortunately, were mostly an attempt to avoid the question instead of answering it. Encounter balance becomes significantly easier if you can rely on the PCs going in at an expected state, but there's a tradition of risk/reward play tied to HP management that views "an encounter" as too small a unit to build challenges into (preferring something like a dungeon floor, or a settlement/fort as the basic unit of challenge).

D&D needs to solve for all of the above, particularly if it wants to stay a big tent game. How do you have a satisfying encounter when PCs are going to face 1, maybe 2 between rests, while also having functional rules if they're going to be in a dangerous environment with gradual HP loss for an entire day or more? Moreover, you probably need to be able to do both in the same campaign, without making system level adjustments to things like the duration of rests even if you provide levers to adjust them at a global pre-campaign level.

 

[Emberashh]

Okay, looks like we have a fundamental disagreement here

Well, the alternative is that you think the early levels are fine as is and that any fix to the Adventuring day that disrupts early levels is thus bad.

Which is kind of a strange way to go about this. In theory sure if you want to maintain the early levels as is then yes, the adventuring day has to be modified.

But heres the thing, Ive already been saying thats possible, but even more importantly as mentioned, the early levels are already visibly poor regardless of the adventuring day.

Theres a reason people skip to level 3 or even 5 and its not because the early levels are just too much fun.

Encounter balance becomes significantly easier if you can rely on the PCs going in at an expected state

Precisely why I always recommend Epic Heroism. Combine it with Slow Natural Healing and the combo goes a long way towards addressing a lot of 5es issues.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, the alternative is that you think the early levels are fine as is and that any fix to the Adventuring day that disrupts early levels is thus bad.

I'm fairly sure he thinks the six encounter adventuring day is a slog. And that the six encounters with two rests model is a problem. (Correct me if I'm wrong @SteveC )

 

[SteveC]

I'm fairly sure he thinks the six encounter adventuring day is a slog. And that the six encounters with two rests model is a problem. (Correct me if I'm wrong @SteveC )

Certainly so. I think the six encounter adventuring day is something that is horrible at low levels and just a slog at higher levels. I haven't played in very high level games of 5E so I don't know if that is addressed there, but I think people have consistently said that high level play is all over the place since it wasn't playtested nearly as much.

Low level play simply can't handle six encounter days because the characters don't have enough resources that can be recovered with a short rest (outside of classes like the Warlock which is all short rest) and run out of hit dice. A low level wizard runs out of spells very fast, and uses nothing but cantrips from then on. An experienced player rations those spells out, but that can result in the party taking a huge variation in damage or other resource depletion if they don't guess correctly or if there's some bad die rolls involved.

My experience is that you can eventually hit a sweet spot where characters can do more and have enough resources to do more encounters over time. Does that get to six? Consistently? I honestly don't know. I don't know if there's any consensus on it, really. How that scales best is really anyone's guess, and that's a problem. And that's why I'd say that changes to the adventuring day and the rest system are really important to keeping the game fun across all levels, not just some that are narrowly defined.

I would also say that planning an adventuring day as the GM so that the game is interesting and not just filler combat is also quite challenging for six encounters. And that's not even getting into fitting all of those encounters into a single game session.

So yes, I think there's a lot that needs to be done to address the issue. I also know that, while there isn't universal agreement with this idea, it's also something that's been discussed since the game first launched, and many people have made the same points as I'm making.

 

[Emberashh]

I'm fairly sure he thinks the six encounter adventuring day is a slog. And that the six encounters with two rests model is a problem. (Correct me if I'm wrong @SteveC )

Sure, but thats why its important to recognize it isn't actually six encounters. Its six medium encounters, and yes, the difference is substantial, especially when you account for feats/magic items and post PHB content.

Hards are already what the game actually expects, and that remains the same when you address the math.

I would also say that planning an adventuring day as the GM so that the game is interesting and not just filler combat is also quite challenging for six encounters.

Considering the game is almost all combat its kind of weird to be resistant to using combat as content.

This of course has all been relitigated to death over the years and it generally just boils down to you either think 5e combat is fun or you don't and for whatever reason aren't playing something else.

If you don't think 5e is fun then no fixes are going to work that don't fundamentally change the game.

 

[MichaelSomething]

But being terribly weak at low levels is vital for that D&D feeling. They tried giving 1st levels enough power to feel viable in 4th Edition and it was strongly rejected.

Certainly so. I think the six encounter adventuring day is something that is horrible at low levels and just a slog at higher levels. I haven't played in very high level games of 5E so I don't know if that is addressed there, but I think people have consistently said that high level play is all over the place since it wasn't playtested nearly as much.

Low level play simply can't handle six encounter days because the characters don't have enough resources that can be recovered with a short rest (outside of classes like the Warlock which is all short rest) and run out of hit dice. A low level wizard runs out of spells very fast, and uses nothing but cantrips from then on. An experienced player rations those spells out, but that can result in the party taking a huge variation in damage or other resource depletion if they don't guess correctly or if there's some bad die rolls involved.

My experience is that you can eventually hit a sweet spot where characters can do more and have enough resources to do more encounters over time. Does that get to six? Consistently? I honestly don't know. I don't know if there's any consensus on it, really. How that scales best is really anyone's guess, and that's a problem. And that's why I'd say that changes to the adventuring day and the rest system are really important to keeping the game fun across all levels, not just some that are narrowly defined.

I would also say that planning an adventuring day as the GM so that the game is interesting and not just filler combat is also quite challenging for six encounters. And that's not even getting into fitting all of those encounters into a single game session.

So yes, I think there's a lot that needs to be done to address the issue. I also know that, while there isn't universal agreement with this idea, it's also something that's been discussed since the game first launched, and many people have made the same points as I'm making.

 

[Emberashh]

But being terribly weak at low levels is vital for that D&D feeling. They tried giving 1st levels enough power to feel viable in 4th Edition and it was strongly rejected.

People say they want that DND feeling but I doubt most of them could accurately describe and quantify that feeling.

And meanwhile with the prevalance of people starting at level 3 or 5, its clear that not a lot, if not most, people consider the low power levels from 1-2 to be that vital.

Especially given those levels are really even meant to be stuck with for more than a session, may be two. Id have to check but I don't even think you can get through a single adventuring day without hitting the XP to get to level 3.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Spoken like a person who wasn't here for the 4th Edition wars.

People say they want that DND feeling but I doubt most of them could accurately describe and quantify that feeling.

And meanwhile with the prevalance of people starting at level 3 or 5, its clear that not a lot, if not most, people consider the low power levels from 1-2 to be that vital.

Especially given those levels are really even meant to be stuck with for more than a session, may be two. Id have to check but I don't even think you can get through a single adventuring day without hitting the XP to get to level 3.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Spoken like a person who wasn't here for the 4th Edition wars.

would anyone care to elaborate on the meaning of this for the people who weren't around for those wars then?