D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

Lower levels allow PCs a greater depth of play & interaction with the world than PCs at higher levels.

You can assert that but all that really tells me is that you haven't played at high level very often and for whatever reason just let go of taking the game seriously whenever you approach it.

That room for depth & potential for growth

Im sorry but I just have to snicker at this. If there was ever an objectively inaccurate way to describe 5e, that right there is it.

but that comment does not cease to be a phrase too often used to dismiss problems as noted simply because it's printed.

This is a misapplication of the Oberoni fallacy. The issues aren't being dismissed by pointing out what the game expects, they're being put in a proper context so that an adequate solution can be found.

You can't address a problem if you don't understand what the problem actually is, and coming to a mutually agreed upon view on it is critical to that.

Going to books and looking at what the game is telling you it expects is part and parcel to that process of finding a mutual understanding.

Dismissing it because you think the problem is being dismissed, when it isn't, is just wrong.

And it has to be said too that contrary to your assertions not a lot of tables religiously start at level 1, many explicitly skip to level 3 at a minimum and when combined with the fact that the game also tells you not to do this if the players are already sufficiently familiar with the game, leads to the reality of the situation, that mutual understanding we need to reach so we can actually address the issue, being that at most, you can claim that there should be a replacement for those levels that actually integrates with how people actually play the game.

You cannot assert that these levels are so vital and inseparable from the game when most players skip them.

As an aside, I don't know what the hell is up about this topic thats pulling in a bunch of apparent contrarians asserting things completely contrary to the zeitgeist but god damn is it exhausting.

You know Ive been lurking on this forum for years prior to actually joining, and Ive read through entire topics all about these different things in 5e, and have even dug deeper into the Gygax days.

I know for a fact that this forum has been representative of 5es reception similar to anywhere else on the internet, and I can actually say quite a few of the people in this topic are people I recall speaking in agreement with a lot of the things that, suddenly, are being asserted as falsehoods.

Did I really trigger people that naughty word badly with my OP?
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Good thing we're in the Era where DMs ignore the Exp system and just have characters level up when their judgement tells them to.
Sadly it's the era where we've had years of ignoring lessons learned in the past & GMs doing what they can to work around it. Although I will say that it's nice being dismissed for not "playing" enough high level games as a GM rather than the usual of hearing how it's ok if monsters are incapable of meeting the needs of play.*

*Kinda like wotc has admitted as one of the things they hope to fix in oned&d. ;)
 

being dismissed

No one dismissed you. Asserting that that high level play is incapable of providing depth or growth is simply indicative that either A) you don't actually play at those levels, or B) you're taking a bizarre attitude into those levels that results in you not taking the game seriously anymore.

This isn't a dismissal, its an assessment of why you think the way you think.

If you disagree, then we can argue if you like, but frankly its been pretty clear in this topic these arguments go nowhere.

it's ok if monsters are incapable of meeting the needs of play.

And now we're talking about an entirely different issue. Im shocked at that development. Shocked.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
No one dismissed you. Asserting that that high level play is incapable of providing depth or growth is simply indicative that either A) you don't actually play at those levels, or B) you're taking a bizarre attitude into those levels that results in you not taking the game seriously anymore.

This isn't a dismissal, its an assessment of why you think the way you think.

If you disagree, then we can argue if you like, but frankly its been pretty clear in this topic these arguments go nowhere.



And now we're talking about an entirely different issue. Im shocked at that development. Shocked.
You still are not presenting anything about the merits of 5e that allow what you are talking about & that's not too surprising given that there is ample evidence of problems in 5e's design. High level play in 5e is incapable of meeting the bar that lower level play can because the design eliminates any need for PCs to improve their equipment, that's a thing wotc has been very up front about admitting from the start.
Planned and Random
Encounter Treasures
It is important for the DM to distinguish between placed
treasures and those found with random encounters. The
scale of the two is vastly different.
Monster descriptions in the Monstrous Manual differentiate
between treasures found in a creature’s lair, den, or base and
those carried by individuals. Treasure gained through a random
encounter will be smaller than treasure gained through a
planned encounter. If a random treasure is larger or more sig-
nificant than a placed one, the players are going to remember
and value the random encounter more than the plot.
TREASURE & MAGICAL ITEMS
Treasures should be used to build the adventure, develop
a plot, and reward intelligent and daring play. If they just
appear randomly, not only is the DM throwing away a useful
adventure-building device, he is threatening his overall cam-
paign. In general, a large treasure should be a planned part of
an adventure, a way to motivate players, or a goal to be
achieved by the characters.
And remember, as important as treasure is, it need not be
the sole motivator for a story. Indeed, there are times when it
will be unimportant to the adventure. In these cases, the plot
doesn’t need the outside motivation of cash to interest the
players. Still, small rewards should still be made available to
the players. A treasure reward, no matter how small, gives the
players the feeling that their characters are succeeding and
moving ahead.
TREASURE TABLES

To simplify the assignment of treasures
to lairs and monsters, the AD&D game
uses a set of alphabetic codes to catego-
rize different sizes and types of treasure.
Each monster listing in the Monstrous Manual has a “Trea-
sure Type” listing followed by a series of letters. These letters
refer to Table 83 in Appendix 1 of the DMG.

MAINTAINING BALANCE
For all his good intentions, sooner or
later the DM is likely to err in the
awarding of treasure. Either he will
award too little or hand out too much
The first is just tight-fistedness; the second leads to high
powered, low-role-playing campaigns (sometimes called
“Monty Haul’’ dungeons).
Now, if both DM and players enjoy a particular type of
campaign and are having a good time, there is no problem to
fix. However, more often than not, these two extreme adven
turing styles lead to game problems.

TOO LITTLE TREASURE
In the case of a tight-fisted DM, the most obvious signs
that the players are not having fun are frustration, cynicism,
and low expectations. If the characters are not finding trea-
sures commensurate to the risks they took, the players are
going to wonder if all the effort of playing is really worth it.
They become frustrated when, upon solving a devious trap,
they discover a pittance, or nothing at all.
Their cynicism shows as they start to make snide remarks
about the level of rewards they have received or are likely to
get for future efforts. Finally, they just begin to expect less and
less from the DM’s campaign, until it reaches the point where
they expect nothing and they go home! In such a campaign,
the DM may have a fine time, creating detailed settings and
elaborate adventures. But if he does not have the enthusiasm
of his players, there isn’t much point in playing.
Such a campaign can succeed if there are other rewards
that involve the players in the game. Perhaps there are ample
opportunities for character advancement or personality devel-
opment. The characters may have the opportunity to play a
decisive role in world affairs. These things are possible, but
only a DM of extraordinary skill can overcome the drawbacks
he has created.

Fortunately, the problems of too little treasure are easily
fixed—simply introduce more treasure into the campaign. No
adjustments need to be made to the characters. The trea-
sures available in the game world can be increased without
the players even aware that the change has been effected.
MONTY HAUL CAMPAIGNS
At the other extreme, the problems of too much treasure
are not so easily solved. Here players may enjoy the game—
and why not? Their characters are doing quite well. They
have sufficient money and magic to best any situation the
DM can devise.
However, the DM seldom has the same enjoyment. He is
faced with the task of topping the last lucrative adventure. He
must make each adventure a greater challenge than the last.
While this is true for all DMs, it is grossly exaggerated for the
DM who has given out too much: How do you top the adven-
ture where the fighter got the Hammer of Thor or some
equally valuable item?
Invariably, the players reach a point where they, too,
become frustrated. Everything is the same—”Oh, we did this
before,” or “Ho-hum. Another Sword of Instant Monster
Destruction.” Soon there are no challenges left, because the
characters have earned everything in the book!
Fixing such a situation is far from easy.
The first thing to do
is to stop giving out so much treasure in future adventures.
Even this isn’t as simple as it sounds, since players have
already had their expectations built up. Imagine playing for
months or years in a world where you routinely find 5 magical
items and tens of thousands of gold pieces each adventure
and then, one day, finding only two or three magical items
and a thousand gold pieces! Still, painful as it may be for play-
ers, cutting back on future treasure hauls is a must.
The second part of the fix is far more difficult—remove
from the campaign some of what has already been given.
Most players won’t voluntarily surrender their goods and
equipment just because the DM made a mistake. The DM
must be inventive, resorting to new and bizarre taxes, acci-
dents, theft, and anything else he can think of. Use a given
method only once and be sure to allow the characters a fair
chance. Nothing will upset and anger players more than hav-
ing their characters jerked about like a dog on a chain.
Sometimes the situation has just gotten so far out of hand
that there is no way to bring it back under control. For exam-
ple, because the DM has given out excessive magic, the play-
ers have near-godlike powers. They have used wishes to
exceed ability score limits and enhance their classes with
permanent abilities. They have fashioned other-planar strong-
hold impervious to anything. They have reached the point
where they are dictating the structure of the game to the DM.
There is only one cure—starting over.
Require all the characters to retire, and begin anew with
1st-level characters, being careful not to make the same mis-
takes again. The players may grumble and complain, but if
the DM is fair, the complaints should eventually be overcome.
To this end, the DM may even want to set the new characters
in a different part of his campaign world, one that has not
been explored before.


Once players have even a single magic item they are above the curve for monster math & due to bounded accuracy higher level PCs find themselves with skills & abilities that on their own scaled far beyond the bounds of a system designed for the needs of lower levels. With no need for equipment upgrades & skills that surpass any possible challenges thrown their way you wind up with high level PCs with shallow ties as a result of those PCs having no need to interact with the world as entities who care about their place in it.
 


High level play in 5e is incapable of meeting the bar that lower level play can because the design eliminates any need for PCs to improve their equipment

Equipment doesn't actually matter in the first place so you are, again, just placing blame on the wrong things.

And thats without getting into the fact that you're only now being specific about equipment as being the issue to counter me when I was under the assumption we were speaking in general about high level play.

Once players have even a single magic item they are above the curve for monster math

Magic items aren't a core part of the game. They're considered optional for a reason, and this is again another clear reason why its so important to have a mutual understanding in what the actual root issue is.

None of these issues are a problem with high level play, theyre a problem with those specific systems that either A) are severely underbaked, B) Not intended to be core to the game, or C) both, that then go on to exacerbate an additonally unsupported section of the game.

You can't fix a cruddy bread loaf by trying to add salt after its been baked, and especially not when its the yeast you really needed to have in there.

you wind up with high level PCs with shallow ties as a result of those PCs having no need to interact with the world as entities who care about their place in it.

In other words you develop a weird attitude where you stop taking the game seriously because reasons.

In other, other words, may be you just don't like 5e and the game isn't flawed on that basis.
 




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