Retcon the dumb "Faction War" and bring back the FULL on Blood War?

[Imaro]

But this angle actually makes them more simplistic...

You basically have turned them into a human "badguy" in terms of motivation. What makes using a devil different from say a high level spellcaster?

So all the various motivations that a human can have for their actions are more simplistic than the single motivation of... I do evil because I'm evil... seriously? I've never viewed human motivation to be simplistic in any way.

Attach any human motivation, whether sane or mad, to an immortal, perverse, corrupt and alien genius, extrapolate the methods they would use in accomplishing whatever that motivation is and you have a fiend. I don't think what seperates the mortal spellcaster from the fiend is their differing motivations... I think it's in the way said motivation is acted upon by each.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Now, now. I suspect you don't think that this fairly characterizes your preferences any more than this...

...fairly characterizes our preferences.

Okay, fair enough. I didn't mean anything especially negative by it, but in context, yeah, it was poorly phrased. Sorry.

 

[Mikaze]

What Faction War?

Enjoyment of a setting only increases when you master the art of simply ignoring what flat out doesn't work for you.

 

[Glyfair]

I'm still not seeing Ari's view of what fiends should be like. All I'm really getting from his explanation is that fiends should be nothing more than a tool for some hack-n-slash.

IMO, The Screwtape Letters is a good place to start. It also has nothing to do with hack-n-slash.

 

[Kzach]

By "nobody" you perhaps mean "Kzach." 'Cause I loved it!

No, I liked the Blood War. Nothing in my post inferred I didn't.

It was, however, a major topic of discussion on many forums for many years with a vast and very vocal majority hating on it. If you haven't seen that discussion, well... what can I say?

It was mainly hated on by the old school crowd. Maybe they're just not as vocal anymore because they all went back to 1980 and started playing 1e again.

 

[AllisterH]

No, I liked the Blood War. Nothing in my post inferred I didn't.

It was, however, a major topic of discussion on many forums for many years with a vast and very vocal majority hating on it. If you haven't seen that discussion, well... what can I say?

It was mainly hated on by the old school crowd. Maybe they're just not as vocal anymore because they all went back to 1980 and started playing 1e again.

This was a migration from rec.games.frp.dnd

Not sure if Eric Noah still hangs around (or even SKR when he hung out on r.g.f.d during the Robb Repp days), but contrary to the lovefest we see for PS on various message board (not just here, but paizo and rpg.net), pre WOTC, it was EASILY 50/50 hate for PS.

And a main reason for the hatred _WAS_ the humanization of the demons/devils a.k.a being able to sit down and have a beer with them in Sigil.


I honestly think you're right

 

[Doug McCrae]

And a main reason for the hatred _WAS_ the humanization of the demons/devils a.k.a being able to sit down and have a beer with them in Sigil.

Similar to the old school hate for Unearthed Arcana, which made drow a PC race?

 

[MrMyth]

Chime me in as another one who didn't hate the Blood War, but also wasn't sad to see it end - and, generally, for RP reasons. It simply came across as too simplistic. I felt it had its place, and made for a great story, but not for a great setting or great game. It reduced the options for planar politics, and was a bit too absolute for my tastes. I liked the concept of it, basically, but not the execution.

As it is, I rather like the idea of it having been there in the past, but being currently 'on hold'. Having that simmering tension there, just below the surface, seems filled with story possibilities. In my current game, the PCs have a few tentative alliances with devils. If their missions take them and the devils into the Abyss, can they accomplish their goals without accidently reigniting the Blood War? That's a more interesting question to me than simply having them there to observe - or attempt to survive - an eternally ongoing conflict.

 

[Oryan77]

Did anyone actually play in or DM the Faction War adventure? I have it but have never read it.

Is it a good adventure to run if you are ready to turn everything upside down? We're almost finished with the Dead Gods adventure, and that book was huge. It took me 4 years to DM it (although I added a lot of side quests in between events to fill out the empty parts). The Faction War book is about as big, and I don't know if I'm ready for another long adventure unless it's really worth running.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Dislike faction war, loved Blood War.

Blood War was so big in scope and flavor, it really put the players in a position where they could see something huge, monolithic, neigh everlasting, and unquestionably evil. Here was something not even the archons dared interfere in. Those scarce few mortals who grew involved and somehow survived were always permanently damaged as a result of it, damning themselves in many small ways to escape. It also provided an interesting problem for a lot of players - having to deal with a war that hurts uncountable number of people, something that stains and damns reality itself, something so unspeakably bad...and have either alternative to it be worse. As horrible and evil and terrifying as the Blood War was, the alternative of either side winning was the stuff that gives celestials nightmares. It gave something much more rich and interesting to play with the the godawful and boring "Well, here's some evil dudes, and you're not evil, so you need to go kill them."

Additionally, the Blood War didn't take anything away. You could still play devils entirely as the Faustian pact givers and whatnot without axing out the Blood War. I see complaints of people thinking you'd just walk up and have a beer with a pit lord in Sigil, and all I can think is: "Ok, that's nice. Now read the goddamn book and come back to me." Same thing with rigid armies of the demons - if you honestly believe that, then you haven't read the books. At all.