Retrospective: 3.x stuff I'm glad I left behind

Halivar

First Post
After four months of play, both as a DM and as a player, I realized that there are many things in 3.x that I'm not missing that I didn't expect to not miss. In some cases, they're things I didn't realize didn't really work until they were gone and the game improved for it. Here's my short list of the top things that I am happy are gone from my game.

Full attack/Power Attack - This one scared me, at first. As someone who has always preferred melee fighters and paladins, my first impression of hearing that both full attack and power attack were going to missing from 4E was near-panic. One attack a round? No more 2-for-1 damage bonuses? In 3.x, they are the only things that make fighters competitive with other classes; taking them away denudes the fighter of power. In retrospective, I can see that these mechanics failed utterly at allowing the fighter to stand out as a melee character. This is especially so for full attack, since it is used (or abused) with far greater efficiency by splat-book PrC's like the Whirling Dervish. These mechanics are now gone because they simply aren't needed for the fighter to stand out. I can play a fighter without having to "dress up" what is otherwise a dull, repetitive mechanic. The greatest side benefit is that no one rolls for nine attacks per round anymore.

Inappropriately leveled animal companions - Nothing is more annoying than having a large part of your character's "class power" derive from an animal companion/special mount/familiar, especially if you multi-class and your companion is stuck in power-stasis. There are rare cases where I have managed to well-and-truly break the animal companion rules, but usually I end up better off forgetting I have the companion in the first place. This is especially true of wizards and rangers, who have many, many PrC's available that do not scale companions. I am looking forward to a future official reintroduction of animal companions to 4E; if the current design philosophy holds, I expect a solution that scales by level. (BTW, I foresee a problem with static level 4 warhorses. There needs to be a mechanic for advancing them. I would be tempted to say that they are always at least CL-2, using monster advancement to scale them.)

Multiclassing- This is another one that scared me. As a devoted melee player, I have historically relied on multiclassing to add mechanical flavor to my fighters and paladins. To remove multiclassing is to remove my ability to add nuance to my character. I can happily report that my fear here was alleviated in actual play. Multiclass feats enhanced my game over a la carte class levels in two ways. First, powers I receive from other classes are properly scaled to my level, and I choose what powers I get. In 3.x, multi-classing means you must get the bottom tier abilities first. If you're a Ftr10/Wiz1, that means you get... magic missile with 1d4+1 damage. In 4E, you can cast fireball, or something else appropriately leveled. Second, you lose nothing by multiclassing. In 3.x, if a fighter or a wizard wants to multiclass, they risk losing precious BAB or caster levels to do so. At level 10, the power level difference between BAB +7 and BAB +10 or between spell level 3 and spell level 5 is enough to thwart most of the thematically "cooler" multiclass concepts right out of the gate (and heaven help the poor soul playing a multi-classed druid, who has three separate class abilities to lose to stasis). The "multiclass by feat" mechanic allows my players and I to express characters that simply weren't viable in 3.x.

Wands of cure light wounds - Every game, every session, after every combat: "Ok, I pull out the WoCLW, and *bink* *bink* *bink* *bink*." They're cheap enough to outfit every wand-user in the party, and that makes them part of the "standard adventurer's pack" in our games; you're stupid not to have one. The healing surge is a huge thematic change in 4E to accomodate a more cinematic narrative, but also has the side effect of mooting this klunky and decidedly non-cinematic 3.x artifact.

Buffs- Math hurt brain... head too full of dumb... Seriously, the fact that we needed the rule that multiple adjusts of the same "type" don't stack should have been a warning that this mechanic was broken. That WotC then proceeded to make fifteen bajillion "types" in splat books to make sure they do stack should have sent us running to the hills. Not once in 4E play have we spent more than 30 seconds trying to decide what kind of bonus someone gets to their attack or skill check. Good riddance to bad rubbish (WotC, please leave this one dead and buried, because if it comes crawling out of its grave, I'm gon' have a wooden stake ready).

Too many skills/cross-class skills- "One man's trash," and all that jazz, since it's a fiercely debated topic. Here's my take: as a fighter in 4E, I can take a single multclass feat, take stealth, and perform that skill with the same proficiency as a rogue of my level. In 3.x, even with multiclassing, it is hard to accomplish this. Using fighter skill points alone? Impossible, especially given that what are now catch-all's like Stealth and Thievery were really several individual skills. Actually, I wish 4E had gone a step further and abolished the limited class skill list altogether. I'll stick by the rules, for now, and see if the changes made are enough to fix it.

Death from massive damage/Save-or-Die spells - King's Quest V was a really fun game for the first hour. Then I walked into a bar, and died. I expect that I was supposed to be Pavlov's dog, learning the next time I played not to go into that bar; except there was no "next time." Save-or-die is another hotly-contested topic. In my game, it is not appropriate. It is not heroic. It is not cinematic. Not from the player's perspective, nor the DM's. Therefore, it doesn't belong at our table. The problem is that this is a hard mechanic to excise from 3.x because so much of 3.x's balancing presumes the existence of these mechanics. I've had four characters die in the first round of combat (twice, before my first action), and I am happily confident that it shall not happen again.

Level-drain and rust monsters - The latter, though iconic, isn't iconic enough to not piss me off every time it's used. Mechanics designed simply for the expressed purpose of permanently punishing a player for rolling badly is garbage. Some of my characters would have been better off jumping into molten lava at the start of initiative; 1 lost level has a 75% chance of being better than 1d4 lost levels.

There are more, but I heard that you can only keep a person's interest in your monologue for 15 minutes, tops. If you've read this far, you're probably waiting for my post to end. ;)
 

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I agree on all counts. These are things that 4e did right by removing.

Of course, there is stuff I wish they hadn't removed, but that's another thread.
 

Preach on, brother Halivar! Everything you listed are things I grew to despise in 3e. 4e fixing these flaws in the game are why my group loves 4e and is never going back.
 

Full attack/Power Attack

It was more of a means to an end, IMO. In 3e, PA was really the only thing fighters had going which would make them remotely anywhere near the power level of casters, so it is little surprise every melee build ended up taking it, or trying to abuse the heck out of it. In 4e, all classes are more or less the same balance-wise, so you don't need power attack anymore (and given the all or nothing nature of attacks, it may actually be more of a liability!). :p

Inappropriately leveled animal companions

What classes are there whose power level is so dependent on an animal companion? While at lower lvs, "fighter" was a druid class feature, it was by no means his only strength, seeing as to how he got wildshape at 5th lv, the ability to cast spells while wildshaped at 6th, and the endurance to remain in wildshape 24/7 at 8th lv.:erm:

Multiclassing

It is a mixed bag for me. 4e made spellcaster multiclassing viable to an extent, but at the cost of making multiclassing suck in general (let us not even go into the disaster that is paragon multiclassing).

3e multiclassing was clearly applicable only to non-caster classes. I am indifferent here, since it seems that I have lost as much as I gained, if not more.

Wands of cure light wounds

You mean the ludicrity of having your non-magical fighters magically heal their wounds in mid-combat? This just seems to pigeon-hole the encounters such that all wounds inflicted on the PCs must be "imaginary" in nature, with the "real wounds" appearing only when they are reduced to their last 10 hp or something. An extended rest restoring everyone to full hp?

Wands of CLW/vigor may be cheesy, but at least they made sense from a "logic" POV. How is it that the players can take a licking ever so often, and still have the stamina to tough it out and continue adventuring, even after suffering wounds great enough to fell even the most hardy of explorers? Magic. I have ways of explaining how they recover from giants clubbing them in the head, spearing them through the chest (all narrative, of course) etc, which are clearly not viable under the 5-minute rest rationale.

Too many skills/cross-class skills

I am actually an advocate of the limiting class-skill list in 3e, though I acknowledge there are a few shortcomings. However, I don't really like ready access to cross-thematic skills, such as spellcraft for barbarians.
 

Full attack/Power Attack

It hasn't been removed; just displaced. Now it's the wizard who has to make 9 attack rolls each time he uses an area power like Thunderwave (level 1 at-will with an area of blast-3).

Inappropriately leveled animal companions

Yes, that was something that needed to be fixed.

Multiclassing

This one, OTOH, I've never seen the problem with. As with everything that involved freedom and choices, of course, could be sometimes abused and/or botched, but it's just, IMO, a matter of which splat books do you allow at your table and which ones you don't. Having run 3.x for 4+ years using just the 3 core books and, at the end of it, PHB2 (mostly for the higher level fighter feats), we've never met any problem with it.

Wands of cure light wounds

When SWSE came out, we introduced a "second wind" rule in our 3.x game. My group didn't like it at all and we abandoned it after 3 sessions.


You're dead right on this. In fact, I've come to develop a simplified buff system for 3.x, where there are just these types:
- Armor (which includes natural armor)
- Shield
- Dodge
- Circumstance (assigned by the DM)
- Magic

Everything that comes from a spell, a class feature, a magic item or something like that falls into "Magic" (i don't care if it's morale, enhacement, deflection, sacred or whatever). So, effectively speaking, you can have only 1 active buff involved in any check.

Too many skills/cross-class skills

This one (the trained/untrained paradigm) is something we also tried out when SWSE came out, and we loathed it. I find it much more elegant the simplified skill rank system used in PFRPG.

Death from massive damage/Save-or-Die spells
Level-drain and rust monsters

These two, I understand why so many people hate them, but I happen to like it. I'm that evil, you know ;)
 

Mostly agree. These are all problems with the core set that I'm glad to see gone.

But I'll also note that there are better fixes out there than 4e, in many cases. ;)
 

You mean the ludicrity of having your non-magical fighters magically heal their wounds in mid-combat?
How were your non-magical fighters using wands? You need to get hit DC 20 on a UMD skill in order to use a wand. If your fighter and his 2 skill points per level aint' doing jack with that wand. :)

Laundry Spell List - Gone are the days of any spellcaster with a dozen and a half of spells, with rules they don't have in their hands, spending their five minute round deciding "What should I cast?" Or, "What should I prepare today?" "Wait, let me look up the rules for the spell I want to use." Having every single rule on a single line, on your character sheet or on a card, is so empowering. The options are limited, yes, but all those spells you had did most of the same thing.

Here's one that factors into buffs, but:

At the Table Stat Adjustments - So, I have Bull's Strength on, and I'm wielding my weapon two handed. Oh crap, someone just hit me with 5 points of poison damage. What's my attack and damage now? Buffs and De-buffs that target stats, which effect all your math, were just horrible.
 

(Starting a 4E game soon)

For me:

Skills: Too hard to keep track of for casual players. As a DM it is nearly impossible to ensure that the skill values my players are using are anything like accurate! But did that ever matter?

Grapple/ Sunder/ Disarm complexity: The reality of these moves is they are spread all over the rule books and just slightly too complex to actually want to use in game. My current 3.5 campaign I am REALLY going to try and use Disarm (I've build a character to do it). So we shall see.

Wizard overpower - Fighter lameness: Is this really an issue?

Ben

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Grapple/ Sunder/ Disarm complexity: The reality of these moves is they are spread all over the rule books and just slightly too complex to actually want to use in game. My current 3.5 campaign I am REALLY going to try and use Disarm (I've build a character to do it). So we shall see.
Trip is better. Because once you start disarming, your DM is going to throw monsters that have natural attacks. Trip attacks knock the target prone, giving you an OoA when he stands up.

Sidenote: "Trip" and "Disarm" and "Sunder" can be interpreted in 4e. Certainly they're not called that, but powers that "knock down" are a trip. Slide or push powers, and "weaken" can be interpreted as "You broke his sword, and he uses the jagged edge. He is weakened until he picks can grab a new weapon (save ends)" or, "You knocked his weapon three squares. He dives after it."
 

How were your non-magical fighters using wands? You need to get hit DC 20 on a UMD skill in order to use a wand. If your fighter and his 2 skill points per level aint' doing jack with that wand. :)

I never said that they were the ones using the wands, just that wands of curative magic could be used to heal their wounds. Typically, the cleric or druid was the one administering such aid. In the end, it still results in the same thing - the PCs can continue adventuring however grievous an injury they may suffer, and have a way of rationalizing it apart from simply closing one eye. Rather than the fighter simply standing up after 5 minutes and announcing that he is fine despite being trampled by the tarrasque...

Yes, I know about the supposedly abstract nature of hp. But I do play games where the PCs actually get hurt, or trade blows with their enemies, get mauled by ferocious beasts, continue fighting on despite having multiple arrows sticking out of their bodies, and so on, coming out of combat generally worse for wear. Their low hp literally means that their life is hanging by a thread, and they are in dire need of healing magic. This is something a simple "rush of adrenaline" or "5 minute rest" can patch up, or when it is just not practical to say "Yes, I know that mechanically, the foe hit your AC. But in actual fact, he missed."

Fighters and their pitiful skill list was another issue, I concur. Which is why I have played only warblades since the release of ToB...:)
 

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