D&D 5E (2024) Return to the 3 saves for 1D&D?

[leozg]

I don't remember having to think on what Save to use when there were only Fort/Refl/Will, it was so easy. If Wizards don't want the rules to be the protagonist, they should think of bringing back the 3 saves.
I just don't like the 4e way of "pick up the highest ability mod from x and y", it makes some builds more powerful than others. Pick the lowest is no different, mean or sum of 2 abilities is no standard math.
My idea is the middle ability modifier, like 13th Age.

• Fort: str/con/dex
• Refl: con/dex/wis
• Will: int/wis/car

Main 3 abilities for saves (con/dex/wis) are still important, but not that much since you get the middle of 3.

 

[Minigiant]

95% of 5e's problems could be fixed by adopting a fix 4e already made to 3.5.

4ehadsacks of HP and blaster casters.

It just gave monsters and traps way more effect variety.

5e is missing offensive teleports and banishments though.

 

[ECMO3]

Please let's. We've already seen that no one, not even the designers really wants to use STR, INT or CHA saves. Making them split ability lets it actually do what it feels like they were trying to do without actually using the 4e method. Adding some bonuses would also go a long way to helping 6e break away from BA.

Why would you want to break away from BA? It is a cornerstone of the system and probably the single biggest mechanical reason 5E is such a success.

And Wizards (the class) definitely want to use Intelligence saves. It is the reason Tasha's Hideous Laughter, R. Psychic Lance and Synaptic static are such great spells and for the most part better than spells of the same level with more powerful effects on a Wisdom or Constitution save.

I don't see why every save needs to be as useful as every other save. Clearly Wisdom, Dexterity and Constitution are the most important and on one tier while the others are on a different tier, but I don't see why that is bad, especially when every class has proficiency in one "good save" and one "bad save".

 

[Staffan]

I would like to go back to the fort/reflex/will saves but seem to recall a variant (stat+stat)/2 formula for them that was either a common houserule or perhaps unearthed arcana/phb2/dragon mag type thing that encouraged more distributed attribute arrays & gave certain lacking builds a slightly better footing.

13th Age has a Physical and a Mental defense where Physical uses the middle stat of Strength/Dexterity/Constitution and Mental uses the middle stat of Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma.

 

[Staffan]

I don't see why every save needs to be as useful as every other save. Clearly Wisdom, Dexterity and Constitution are the most important and on one tier while the others are on a different tier, but I don't see why that is bad, especially when every class has proficiency in one "good save" and one "bad save".

I don't disagree, but I think it should be called out more. As is, there's nothing that states Wisdom saves are more common than Intelligence or Charisma saves unless you actually have knowledge of a large portion of potential threats.

 

[Horwath]

13th Age has a Physical and a Mental defense where Physical uses the middle stat of Strength/Dexterity/Constitution and Mental uses the middle stat of Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma.

considering how low usually 5th and 6th ability is in D&D, we could have also 2 defenses:
Physical: str+dex+con,
Mental: int+wis+cha,

on extreme ends defenses would be based on abilities:
16,16,16,8,8,8, and 14,14,14,12,12,12

one set would be; 19(10+3+3+3) and 7(10-1-1-1) or 15(10+3+3-1) and 11(10+3-1-1)
or another: 16(10+2+2+2) and 13(10+1+1+1) or 15(10+2+2+1) and 14(10+2+1+1)


since then spellcasters make attacks, the base DC of 8 turns into 10,5 average on d20.

then classes get one defense proficient and resilient feat gives proficiency on other defense.

 

[tetrasodium]

considering how low usually 5th and 6th ability is in D&D, we could have also 2 defenses:
Physical: str+dex+con,
Mental: int+wis+cha,

on extreme ends defenses would be based on abilities:
16,16,16,8,8,8, and 14,14,14,12,12,12

one set would be; 19(10+3+3+3) and 7(10-1-1-1) or 15(10+3+3-1) and 11(10+3-1-1)
or another: 16(10+2+2+2) and 13(10+1+1+1) or 15(10+2+2+1) and 14(10+2+1+1)


since then spellcasters make attacks, the base DC of 8 turns into 10,5 average on d20.

then classes get one defense proficient and resilient feat gives proficiency on other defense.

I think going with only two is too much of a consolidation. with fort/reflex/will there was always at least a moment of thought but two would just make it automatic

 

[Horwath]

I think going with only two is too much of a consolidation. with fort/reflex/will there was always at least a moment of thought but two would just make it automatic

I agree, 3 are the best for D&D, this was just example in comparison to 13th age

 

[Charlaquin]

Two routes, either of which I would find equally acceptable:

1. Go back to Fort, Ref, and Will, but you add the higher of your Str or Con to Fort, the higher of your Dex or Wis to Ref, and the higher of your Int or Cha to Will. You get proficiency in one save.

2. Stick with saves for each ability, but you don’t get proficiency bonus in saves. Instead, skill and tool proficiencies can be applied to saves as well as checks.

 

[Olrox17]

The 6 saves system is (IMO) one of the worst ideas of d&d 5e. The designers kind of acknowledged this by making 3 of those 6 saves far better than the other 3, but I believe we would still be better off going back to fort, reflex and will. Remove the resilient feat, while we’re at it.

The 6 saves system actually works decently fine at low levels, but the math and scaling completely breaks at higher levels, to the point that expert players usually make sure to include a paladin in the party just to patch their saving throws. It’s bad.