Return to the Tomb of Horrors....what say you?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

And the problem is that most current adventures do not require this mindset.

Players (and their Characters) are used to challenges that do not exceed their ability.

The thing is that ToH doesn't exceed their characters' abilities either. It just requires that they are skilled at dungeoneering.

This is why I emphasized that ToH comes from a different era... those were the days when pretty much everyone who played AD&D was a gamer first, and a roleplayer/amateur dramaticist second.

The way to live through meatgrinder trapfests like ToH is as follows:

1) Use summoned monsters and reanimate them when they die. No PC goes anywhere or touches anything unless a summoned monster (or the zombie of a summoned monster) has been there first.
2) Once your summoned monsters have identified at least some of the things that will kill you, you send your thieves in. Nobody other than a thief enters any of the rooms until the thief has declared it safe. If the thief meets a monster, he runs back to the party; the party never moves forward.
3) Your clerics stay back. Right back in areas well cleared and certain to be safe. Even if you do meet an undead thing. Even if there are wounded to be healed or corpses to be raised, they move back to the clerics, the clerics do not come forward to the front line. At all.
4) Use plenty of informational magic, auguries, legend lore, contacting other planes, the whole shebang.
5) Take all the time you need, there's not usually a deadline in the meatgrinder trap-dungeons. You can rest up after every room if you want.

Following those simple rules to the letter is pretty much a guaranteed win in ToH as originally written, probably with zero casualties.

But people don't think like that any more... nowadays, people yearn for combat and for NPC's to interact with, and they agonise over whether it's evil to use summoned monsters to open doors. And they think that death-no-save traps are unfair, which blows my mind... PCs of that level have all the necessary skills and spells to locate the trap, and to disarm it when they find it, they just need to learn to use them.

All you had to do was say that you were searching for traps before you opened that door, and you'd have lived. - Me

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So what you're saying is, the DM is indeed running this adventure so he can kill off the characters? Especially the character of the player who suspected that the DM was trying to do this?

Not quite the case - I honestly believe the DM is trying to challenge some high level and cleverly played characters, not kill them.
In this occasion, our DM took it pretty hard that he made a crucial decision that was "incorrect" after much thought and rest. He is a DM that likes to be fastidious and correct. You can be assured that the next such decision in regards to this character will be "correct".

Bring daerns instant fortress for sleeping/studying spells. Or Leomunds secret shelter.

No issue there, we have Mordenkainen's (Mages) magnificent mansion at Lucifus's - High level Conjurer/Alienist - disposal as well as Lucifus's Portable Tower. He's got the summoned monster thing down too as well as his Horde of Unseen Servants. Essentially, the party is quite proficient when it comes to dungeoneering as seems to be required.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Silverleaf]

I could definitely see playing this as the final adventure for a campaign. If your PC lives through it, you retire him and everybody starts fresh with new 1st-level PCs. If he dies, well I guess you can always play one of the henchmen for the rest of the adventure.

 

[Gentlegamer]

The thing is that ToH doesn't exceed their characters' abilities either. It just requires that they are skilled at dungeoneering.

This is why I emphasized that ToH comes from a different era... those were the days when pretty much everyone who played AD&D was a gamer first, and a roleplayer/amateur dramaticist second.

Excellent observation! Your advice is very sound.

 

[RichGreen]

Hi,

I own Return to the Tomb of Horrors but have never run it. I would love to play in it as I thought it was a very cool adventure, despite the deadliness. I'd also consider running it as the final adventure in a campaign, but as someone else said, it's a big time investment due to its size.

In 1e, I remember surviving the original ToH, mostly by not touching or opening anything!

Cheers


Richard

 

[HellHound]

I like character death, as long as it isn't ignoble.

A TPK, against harsh foes, in mean situations, where we are just in over our heads? BRING IT ON!

On average, I have fonder memories of my dead characters (and they make for much better stories) than of my characters that 'just' retired as they got to higher levels.

That said, I've never seen Return... just the original. I missed the whole AD&D2e thing.

 

[Falkus]

1) Use summoned monsters and reanimate them when they die. No PC goes anywhere or touches anything unless a summoned monster (or the zombie of a summoned monster) has been there first.

So basically, you have to be lawful-evil to get through it?

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

So basically, you have to be lawful-evil to get through it?

Nope.

Oh, sure, there's the mentality that says "If you're a good guy you can't summon a monster and make it open a door for you, that's an evil thing to do."

But to that mentality I'd say, "You'd kill this orc with your sword, right? Why can't I kill it with this trap?"

 

[phoenixgod2000]

PapersandPaychecks: I totally agree with you on how to survive ToH and other adventures like it. Back when the Epic level handbook came out my group converted all our old epic characters to 3.0 and we went through a modified epic level version of Return complete with things like Paragon Nightshades and what not. It was tough but doable and a whole hell of a lot of fun. My character was a 26 level wizard and I used my army of simulacrums to very great effect. A few simulacrum kobolds detect a lot of traps and no pesky moral delimnas either. And my Simulacrum Solar bodyguards took good care of me

the funniest part of Return to the Tomb of Horrors was when we finally got to the last fortress and I used a Worldwalk portal and my TK ring to steal his entire library. I've never quite seen a DM cry like that before.

Ahhh, good times...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Nope.

Oh, sure, there's the mentality that says "If you're a good guy you can't summon a monster and make it open a door for you, that's an evil thing to do."

But to that mentality I'd say, "You'd kill this orc with your sword, right? Why can't I kill it with this trap?"

There are plenty of DMs in both camps. And it is your DM that ultimately adjudicates this issue.