Revamping the Warlock

[Sword of Spirit]

[MENTION=6677017]Sword of Spirit[/MENTION] - That certainly looks like a detailed graph. I will take a look a bit later. But I agree that the Warlock could play more like a spellcaster with the right build. But if the Warlock is supposed to be a true spellcaster in the vein of the sorcerer or warlock, you shouldn't need to build it to make it feel or function like that. Which once again, at least to me, supports the idea that a Warlock shouldn't be a spellcaster. The mechanics don't really support a strong enough identity for players to know how to build a functional warlock build without a good deal of system mastery. To me, that seems like a problem, since a player using a sorcerer or a wizard does not need advanced system mastery to play those classes as they are intended to play by the designers. So, the choice seems to either lean into the spellcasting aspect, or disregard it. I am more in favor of the later.

It sounds like you want to revert to a more 3e warlock, which I enjoyed, so I'm sure that would be fun. I also really like the 5e spellcaster warlock.

I completely agree that system mastery shouldn't be needed to get a class or subclass to play like it looks like it should. That's my criticism of the Blade Pact--it takes a lot of system mastery, and a ridiculous amount of build space to make a character that doesn't do any more damage than one that can be made with just one cantrip and one invocation (and suffers in other areas).

That said, I'm not sure I agree that it takes system mastery to make a full caster warlock. In fact, the choices that I took to build it are actually what I would consider the most obvious choices. Pact of the Tome, and Book of Ancient Secrets. Take invocations that grant at-will spells, and you're done. You now actually have more daily spellcasting resources (both high and low level (through at-will spells)) than a wizard (assuming 2 short rests a day--and playing in games that don't provide that is I think part of the issue). You do have less flexibility in chosen spells (though you'll know more than a sorcerer will), but in exchange you have better HD, armor, weapons, and the most powerful at-will spellcasting attack in the game.

I think where the disconnect comes in is that people want to invest their resources in non-castery things, like Blade Pact, or Chain Pact, and additional invocations that boost eldritch blast, instead of the spellcasting, and then expect to have spellcasting on par with a wizard or sorcerer. What warlock does is provide options to weaken your spellcasting in exchange for other things.

That said, there are enough people who think the class doesn't play like it seems to be presented that I think there must be something to it (although probably not quite as much as is often stated, due to the issue with short rest availability). I wonder how people would feel about the class's functionality if they just multiplied the warlock's spell slots by 3 and made them recover with a long rest.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=6677017]Sword of Spirit[/MENTION] I really appreciate this comment. It certainly gives me something to think about. I agree that there are certainly ways to build the current warlock that can make it feel like a spellcaster. But I still don't think that Warlock really fits the spellcaster mold. I still think it's more akin to the Rogue. A reliable striker with lots of utility. But that's not to say that's THE way a warlock should be perceived, that's just how I personally envision them.

But as I have been designing revamped invocations to better work without Pact Magic or Mystic Arcanum, I am beginning to see a flaw in the design. A warlock of this kind could potentially take all at-will invocations, all short-rest, or all long-rest. That can pose problems. So perhaps invocations should be divided into Lesser Invocations (at-will), Invocations (short-rest), and Greater Invocations (long-rest). Lesser Invocations could be taken in place of Invocations or Greater Invocations, but not vice versa. This would place a cap on short-rest and long-rest abilities.

 

[Savevsdeath]

@Sword of Spirit I really appreciate this comment. It certainly gives me something to think about. I agree that there are certainly ways to build the current warlock that can make it feel like a spellcaster. But I still don't think that Warlock really fits the spellcaster mold. I still think it's more akin to the Rogue. A reliable striker with lots of utility. But that's not to say that's THE way a warlock should be perceived, that's just how I personally envision them.

But as I have been designing revamped invocations to better work without Pact Magic or Mystic Arcanum, I am beginning to see a flaw in the design. A warlock of this kind could potentially take all at-will invocations, all short-rest, or all long-rest. That can pose problems. So perhaps invocations should be divided into Lesser Invocations (at-will), Invocations (short-rest), and Greater Invocations (long-rest). Lesser Invocations could be taken in place of Invocations or Greater Invocations, but not vice versa. This would place a cap on short-rest and long-rest abilities.

If you're going to make the class all about invocations, then leave the option to go fully into just invocations with just one recharge type on the table. The game could use something like that. Although i have to say that i agree with some others in that the 5E Warlock is fine and works exactly as expected depending on how you build it (And no, a bladelock isn't hard to build; it's braindead simple). As for warlock, it's actually my favorite 5E class along with Artificer (Another class everyone swears is awful/uninteresting) for all-day reliability at the thing it does. I really, really like classes with 'always on' abilities, because when presented with limited resources I end up being extremely conservative with them in case I need the powerful, niche ability later but more often than not it's just wasted resources.

 

[TallIan]

[MENTION=6677017]But as I have been designing revamped invocations to better work without Pact Magic or Mystic Arcanum, I am beginning to see a flaw in the design. A warlock of this kind could potentially take all at-will invocations, all short-rest, or all long-rest. That can pose problems. So perhaps invocations should be divided into Lesser Invocations (at-will), Invocations (short-rest), and Greater Invocations (long-rest). Lesser Invocations could be taken in place of Invocations or Greater Invocations, but not vice versa. This would place a cap on short-rest and long-rest abilities.

That tends to be the problem with "a la carte" character development systems. There are only so many good options you can come up with and it is hard to balance more than two or three to the same level. Spells show this quite well, where you mostly see a few good spells taken for each level over and over again and the lesser spells are relegated to treasure scrolls.

For the most part I would not want to see a mix of SR and LR abilities mixed into a single class, or at least the fewer the better as it complicates your resource management.

 

[Pauln6]

I think that the Warlock can be built as spell light or spell heavy is great. I've never been all that interested in high level magic so the Tome Warlock with tons of at will magic works just fine. I would like a few more invocations to give access to spells. My dream invocations would be shadow conjuration and shadow evocation as daily spells to give increased utility but I'm unsure that spells so broad have any place in 5e.

 

[TwoSix]

But as I have been designing revamped invocations to better work without Pact Magic or Mystic Arcanum, I am beginning to see a flaw in the design. A warlock of this kind could potentially take all at-will invocations, all short-rest, or all long-rest. That can pose problems. So perhaps invocations should be divided into Lesser Invocations (at-will), Invocations (short-rest), and Greater Invocations (long-rest). Lesser Invocations could be taken in place of Invocations or Greater Invocations, but not vice versa. This would place a cap on short-rest and long-rest abilities.

While this doesn't exist in the system now, one way to implement this would be to create invocation chains. A low-level at-will invocation becomes the prerequisite for a mid-level short-rest ability, which in turn becomes the prerequisite for a high-level long-rest ability.