Review: Jon Peterson's The Elusive Shift

[MGibster]

This makes it sound dry and academic; of those two adjectives, only one applies. This book does have an academic and historic bent.

This is how I describe my wedding night. I don't know why you'd think this is a negative.

A lot of us (myself included) tend to fall into this mistake- we view history not as the wild diversity that it was, but in terms of what current media tells it is- usually a monolith.

Although I started with AD&D 1st edition in 1987 or so, I didn't really come into my own until 1989 when I started making enough money to start purchasing my own books on a regular basis which would have been 2nd edition. And looking back, man, the gaming community was so fractured. I can't look at my gaming experience and just assume most people had something similar. Other than the rule book, we really didn't have any examples of how the game was supposed to be played. There was a brief scene in E.T. The Extra Terrestrial I guess.

 

[Mannahnin]

Although I started with AD&D 1st edition in 1987 or so, I didn't really come into my own until 1989 when I started making enough money to start purchasing my own books on a regular basis which would have been 2nd edition. And looking back, man, the gaming community was so fractured. I can't look at my gaming experience and just assume most people had something similar. Other than the rule book, we really didn't have any examples of how the game was supposed to be played. There was a brief scene in E.T. The Extra Terrestrial I guess.

Yeah, you got some advice in Dragon magazine (and peeks into people's campaigns in Dragon's Forum letters) and in the manuals (though the 2E books are much more wishy-washy, "you could do it this way, or that way" with guidance), but otherwise your only way to really learn how it was supposed to work was to play with other people. My brother and I got out to our first convention (at Lehigh University, in PA) after a couple of years, when I was 12 or 13 or so, and played in an RPGA 1E AD&D convention. First prize was a prerelease copy of the upcoming 2E Player's Handbook. I definitely learned a good deal from playing with older gamers that weekend.

 

[Reynard]

I just started reading this book, so I thought I would necro this thread as a place to discuss my impressions as I go.

First and foremost, I am even more intrigued by the Bristol "Old West" game than even when I had first read about it on the Playing at the World blog. It really feels like those folks established the model for the ongoing campaign and Gygax pretty much lifted it for D&D (and then went and nicked the whole idea for Boot Hill).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I just started reading this book, so I thought I would necro this thread as a place to discuss my impressions as I go.

First and foremost, I am even more intrigued by the Bristol "Old West" game than even when I had first read about it on the Playing at the World blog. It really feels like those folks established the model for the ongoing campaign and Gygax pretty much lifted it for D&D (and then went and nicked the whole idea for Boot Hill).

So, first ... mad props to the Old West game.

That said, and IIRC, that's not where Gygax got the idea for the ongoing campaign. Instead, when D&D was first previewed to him in person by Arneson, it was the whole advancement/leveling that Gygax was intrigued by. Well, he was obviously intrigued by all of it- but the idea of advancement was something he not only saw, but wanted to emphasize.

 

[Mannahnin]

Right. Ongoing campaigns had been a part of wargaming (and strategy games like Diplomacy) for a while. There were also instances of characters having continuity predating what we think of as an RPG. Whether that be the shared world "storygame" thing those sci-fi fans did in Los Angeles (forgetting the name), or people adopting personae for their Diplomacy games, there was some of that concept floating around.

I think part of Arneson's innovation was ongoing character continuity with mechanical consequences, particularly advancement in power. That was something Gygax definitely hooked onto and saw the potential of.

 

[Reynard]

So, first ... mad props to the Old West game.

That said, and IIRC, that's not where Gygax got the idea for the ongoing campaign. Instead, when D&D was first previewed to him in person by Arneson, it was the whole advancement/leveling that Gygax was intrigued by. Well, he was obviously intrigued by all of it- but the idea of advancement was something he not only saw, but wanted to emphasize.

Yeah, I didn't think about advancement. it doesn't seem like the old west game had any.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, I didn't think about advancement. it doesn't seem like the old west game had any.

Trust me- I am not defending Gygax when it comes to ... borrowing the ideas of others to incorporate into D&D!

That said, I would say the following:

1. Old West (and other examples) is more along the lines of, "Look at all the similar things going on at this time." It's more an examination of the intellectual ferment that let to Arneson (kind of a rebuttal of the "great man" hypothesis in a way).

2. I distinctly remember reading somewhere that while advancement/leveling was a part of the Arnesonian game, Gygax appeared to immediately seize on it as being incredibly important. Today, we would say that he viewed it as the "killer feature." Don't know if this was in ES or something else.

 

[Reynard]

Trust me- I am not defending Gygax when it comes to ... borrowing the ideas of others to incorporate into D&D!

That said, I would say the following:

1. Old West (and other examples) is more along the lines of, "Look at all the similar things going on at this time." It's more an examination of the intellectual ferment that let to Arneson (kind of a rebuttal of the "great man" hypothesis in a way).

2. I distinctly remember reading somewhere that while advancement/leveling was a part of the Arnesonian game, Gygax appeared to immediately seize on it as being incredibly important. Today, we would say that he viewed it as the "killer feature." Don't know if this was in ES or something else.

I was responding mostly to Peterson's note that Gygax seemed to be really impressed by the Old West game and wrote about it. Obviously the same chapter talks about how individual character and continuous play had been occurring in other areas, also seen by Gygax. I think maybe he just liked Old West a lot and so his more intense response was a genre fan thing?

 

[Reynard]

I finished Chapter 1. It really is impressive that fights over "one true wayism" were present so early and still going on. Also, now I want to start a Coventry style fantasy campaign over Discord (but don't have the time).

 

[Reynard]

On Ch 2: I admit I am intrigued by the idea of playing in a way that insulates the players from the rules. It doesn't seem possible with modern D&D, but could conceivably work well with more narrative games.