Review: Jon Peterson's The Elusive Shift

[Voadam]

On Ch 2: I admit I am intrigued by the idea of playing in a way that insulates the players from the rules. It doesn't seem possible with modern D&D, but could conceivably work well with more narrative games.

It could be done in 5e.

Have a copy of their sheets. Have them declare their actions, but you handle the rolls where you can, then declare results.

This will be more immersive for them and take a bunch of rules out from immediate view from the player perspective. Downside is losing the fun of actively rolling. And the extra work for the DM. Players will still track things like slots and gear and hp. Extreme no visible rules would not even say hp, just wounded or not. Which would mess with judging healing a bunch.

 

[Reynard]

It could be done in 5e.

Have a copy of their sheets. Have them declare their actions, but you handle the rolls where you can, then declare results.

This will be more immersive for them and take a bunch of rules out from immediate view from the player perspective. Downside is losing the fun of actively rolling. And the extra work for the DM. Players will still track things like slots and gear and hp. Extreme no visible rules would not even say hp, just wounded or not. Which would mess with judging healing a bunch.

What I meant is that you can't build a character isolated from the rules. Secret rolls might help with immersion but it's not quite the same thing.

 

[overgeeked]

It could be done in 5e.

Have a copy of their sheets. Have them declare their actions, but you handle the rolls where you can, then declare results.

This will be more immersive for them and take a bunch of rules out from immediate view from the player perspective. Downside is losing the fun of actively rolling. And the extra work for the DM. Players will still track things like slots and gear and hp. Extreme no visible rules would not even say hp, just wounded or not. Which would mess with judging healing a bunch.

You’d need to return to the old ways of random stats, random background, and only needing to pick race and class at 1st. Buy gear and go. Any more choices than that, feats, subclass, etc utterly breaks this walled-off approach. Unless you presented those in game as diegetic rewards for choices made in game. The more complicated the system the harder this is to pull off. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible without trying it, but you’d have to have newb players and somehow keep them off the D&D internet spaces and keep them from buying and reading the books.

There’s a story of Dave Arneson’s players being elated when the rules to OD&D came out because they could finally see the rules. Dave laughed and told them those weren’t the rules he used.

This approach, running a blackbox game, is one style of the Free Kriegsspiel Renaissance (FKR). They also tend towards minimalism, verisimilitude, and focusing on the fictional world presented rather than the rules of the game. Anyone interested should check them out.

 

[Mannahnin]

I finished Chapter 1. It really is impressive that fights over "one true wayism" were present so early and still going on. Also, now I want to start a Coventry style fantasy campaign over Discord (but don't have the time).

Coventry! That was the name I was trying to remember last week.

On Ch 2: I admit I am intrigued by the idea of playing in a way that insulates the players from the rules. It doesn't seem possible with modern D&D, but could conceivably work well with more narrative games.

FKR (Free Kriegspiel Revolution) seems about the closest we'll get, unless we limit it to brand new players.

FKR - Free Kriegsspiel Revolution – Follow Me And Die!

Today I came across a tweet mentioning the OSR and FKR. I had not heard of the FKR, so I had to ask what it was. The first article I read was on Board Game Geek titled: Ancient Roleplaying, or Free Kriegsspiel Revolution (FKR): What The Heck Is That? by Jim Parkin. It is a … Continue reading FKR...

followmeanddie.com

The Invisible Rulebooks

When asked to explain the Invisible Rulebooks in person, I usually start with this scenario. If it's any consolation, it rambles in person, ...

rolltop-indigo.blogspot.com

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

@Reynard

If you're interested, there were a number of additional posts after this which dealt with the topics raised in the book.

Go to this thread-

Digressions, Discussions, and Discursions: Postings, Part 2

So I thought I'd post a second collection, which is much smaller than the first. I blame society. Also? I didn't have three billion posts about Greyhawk (numbers are approximate). Anyway, here's the link to the first archive-...

www.enworld.org

Section 2 has the primary collection... "2. A Little Bit About Jon Peterson (Game Wizards, Elusive Shift)"

The last three in that section deal with topics specifically raised in Elusive Shift.

 

[Reynard]

A couple thoughts on Chapter 3:

1) I had no idea Bunnies and Burrows was such an innovative game for the time.

2) lots of folks thought alignment was dumb from the beginning

3) The RPG community really does seem intent on reinventing the wheel and "solving" the same problems over and over again, doesn't it?

 

[MGibster]

3) The RPG community really does seem intent on reinventing the wheel and "solving" the same problems over and over again, doesn't it?

Fair. It's amazing to go back and read advice about how to GM written in the 80s or 90s and seeing that it's essentially the same advice written today.

 

[Reynard]

Fair. It's amazing to go back and read advice about how to GM written in the 80s or 90s and seeing that it's essentially the same advice written today.

We should do a thread on "How to GM" advice and contrast and compare through the ages.

But then I would feel REALLY old.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

On Ch 2: I admit I am intrigued by the idea of playing in a way that insulates the players from the rules. It doesn't seem possible with modern D&D, but could conceivably work well with more narrative games.

It seems to work okay with Dungeon Fantasy/GURPS, especially for new players: don't explain the rules to new players, just ask them for decisions. The rules are good enough that "real world" intuition is good enough to start making decisions.

You can explain the rules once players have a couple of sessions under the belt, or once they start asking questions. At that point there's enough context to frame the rules in terms of the experiences they had. "Remember how you didn't get a chance to parry the fjallatroll's halberd thrust? That's because he was invisible at the time and you didn't know he was there. In those situations you get no active defense--no parry, dodge, or block rolls. Likewise, if Conan had been standing behind the fjallatroll, it wouldn't get a defense, although there's an exception for if he did a 'runaround attack' to move behind it on the same turn he's attacking--in that case we assume it still kind of knows where he is and can defend at -2 instead of getting no defense."

I suppose some players might want to stay permanently insulated from the rules, too, but especially for newbies I have found (since reading The Elusive Shift) that insulating them gives a better initial experience, even if it's more work for the GM.

 

[Reynard]

Chapter 4 is interesting. The thing that surprised me the most is how GMless RPGs appeared almost immediately only to be replaced by PC games. Now they are the "new hotness" despite essentially unlimited PC games.