Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Let's say a colossal creature has a clumsy flight speed of 5 feet. Logically, it would be very slightly more dangerous than without the flight speed (but the increase in danger would be miniscule enough to say that it would not increase the CR).

Someone who does not think about that though, might miss the logic, which would lead to a negative adjustment to CR.

Admittedly, that should normally be rare, but seeing some of the posts all over the web does not make me hopeful that it will be rare. (and of course, such a creature as above should propably considered badly designed).

I think I see what you are getting at now (?).

I'll stipulate you can't have a CR penalty from secondary locomotion.

Thanks.

 

[Anubis]

After careful study, it has occured to me that Darkvision and Scent should not be rated. Both of these are far too insignificant to have any real impact on CR. For Darkvision, damn near everything has it, and those that don't can easily find a light source. (Remember, Darkvision only goes through *natural* darkness.) So standard Darkvision is akin to having a bullseye lantern that only helps you. Also, it is a very low level spell that can also be made permanent. All signs point to Darkvision not being worth anything. As for Scent, I'm not sure why this paltry ability was ever counted in the first place. It doesn't do anything other than alert you to the presence of things that have a smell within a certain range. It doesn't even pinpoint locations, making it useless against invisibility and the like. This ability is nothing more than a duplicate of Low-Light Vision for the sense of smell, seeing as Scent is nothing more than an enhanced sense of smell. Again, it does not impact CR in the least. On the same token, those with Light Sensitivity should not have a reduced CR either, seeing as this vulnerability is very limited in scope and has never once had an impact on any encounter that I am aware of, even after years of gaming. This is just an always active Flare effect, nothing more.

Anyway, I'm certain there are likely other paltry abilities. The stirge's Attach ability also counts as having no impact on CR, seeing as it makes the thing very vulnerable and the blood drain is already counted seperate. Again, there are others I'm sure. I can post more as they come to mind.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

After careful study, it has occured to me that Darkvision and Scent should not be rated. Both of these are far too insignificant to have any real impact on CR. For Darkvision, damn near everything has it, and those that don't can easily find a light source. (Remember, Darkvision only goes through *natural* darkness.) So standard Darkvision is akin to having a bullseye lantern that only helps you. Also, it is a very low level spell that can also be made permanent. All signs point to Darkvision not being worth anything. As for Scent, I'm not sure why this paltry ability was ever counted in the first place. It doesn't do anything other than alert you to the presence of things that have a smell within a certain range. It doesn't even pinpoint locations, making it useless against invisibility and the like. This ability is nothing more than a duplicate of Low-Light Vision for the sense of smell, seeing as Scent is nothing more than an enhanced sense of smell. Again, it does not impact CR in the least. On the same token, those with Light Sensitivity should not have a reduced CR either, seeing as this vulnerability is very limited in scope and has never once had an impact on any encounter that I am aware of, even after years of gaming. This is just an always active Flare effect, nothing more.

Anyway, I'm certain there are likely other paltry abilities. The stirge's Attach ability also counts as having no impact on CR, seeing as it makes the thing very vulnerable and the blood drain is already counted seperate. Again, there are others I'm sure. I can post more as they come to mind.

I'll think about it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Here are the revised Design Parameters for determining Classes and Hit Dice.

Ability Score Increases (+1/4 Levels):
CR +0.025

BAB:
As Fighter CR +0.2
As Cleric CR +0.15
As Wizard CR +0.1

Feats (+1/3 Levels):
CR +0.066

Hit Dice:
d4 CR 0.125
d6 CR 0.175
d8 CR 0.225
d10 CR 0.275
d12 CR 0.325

Saves:
Each Good save CR +0.06
Each Poor save CR +0.03

Skills:
8/Level = CR +0.08
6/Level = CR +0.06
4/Level = CR +0.04
2/Level = CR +0.02

Class Features:
As appropriate.

eg. Fighter
Ability Scores: +0.025
BAB: +0.2
Feats: +0.066
Hit Dice: +0.275
Saves: +0.12
Skills: +0.02

Class Features (11 feats over 20 levels) = Cr +0.11

Total: CR +0.806 (0.8)/Level of Fighter Class

eg. Construct
BAB: +0.15
Hit Dice: +0.275
Saves: +0.09

Total: CR +0.515 (0.5)/Hit Dice

 

[Knight Otu]

As for Scent, I'm not sure why this paltry ability was ever counted in the first place. It doesn't do anything other than alert you to the presence of things that have a smell within a certain range. It doesn't even pinpoint locations, making it useless against invisibility and the like.

SRD:

The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a standard action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

A little bit more than you give it credit for.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Also remember that extraordinary abilities that accomplish the same as supernatural abilities are intrinsically more powerful...since they can't be dispelled, affected by anti-magic etc.

So Natural Darkvision is better than Darkvision At Will as a spell-like ability.

 

[Ashardalon]

eg. Construct
BAB: +0.15
Hit Dice: +0.275
Saves: +0.09

Total: CR +0.515 (0.5)/Hit Dice [/B]

Reminds me... in R3E, you'll propably want to distinguish between intelligent construct and unintelligent ones, as those with an Int score will receive feats and skills (at 2+Int * HD+3).

There might be other, similar cases.

 

[Anubis]

SRD:


A little bit more than you give it credit for.

Well of course I got mine out of the original MM bought when first released. I never reference the SRD, only the printed books.

Although more useful than I originally thought, it still doesn't warrant a CR rating. It only pinpoints with five feet, which really isn't too awful useful anyway. More useful than useless, but still so trite as to be effectively worthless. The point is that Scent does not effect the challenge of any encounter in any circumstance, which I believe is a supported fact through gaming. That would be like having one point of energy resistance or SR 3 or something equally silly.

Hi all!

Also remember that extraordinary abilities that accomplish the same as supernatural abilities are intrinsically more powerful...since they can't be dispelled, affected by anti-magic etc.

So Natural Darkvision is better than Darkvision At Will as a spell-like ability.

I don't dispute that. My point is that these are effectively useless abilities challenge-wise. Darkvision is very limited, possessed by damn near everything, and allows you to do something a 2 gp item can do fot far more people. The fact remains that it does not impact the power level of a creature. I can certainly say an orc without Darkvision is just as dangerous as one with Darkvision. Same goes for all other creatures with Darkvision.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ashardalon mate!

Reminds me... in R3E, you'll propably want to distinguish between intelligent construct and unintelligent ones, as those with an Int score will receive feats and skills (at 2+Int * HD+3).

There might be other, similar cases.

Intelligent Undead and Mindless Undead are treated differently with regards to bothe the Hit Dice Modifier and the Type Modifier.

eg.
Intelligent Undead are +0.6/HD with a +1 CR modifier for Type

Mindless Undead are +0.5/HD with a -1.5 CR modifier for Type.

Intelligent Constructs however are not yet standard fare, I will deal with them when I have 3.5 in my possession. All the building blocks are there for people to do the work already so i don't forsee any problems.

 

[Knight Otu]

Well of course I got mine out of the original MM bought when first released. I never reference the SRD, only the printed books.

Then you should know that almost the same text is printed on page 10 of the MM. And the bit about giants and darkvision is on page 4. Maybe you should read the introduction to the MM. It sounds as if you never did so.

These two abilities give a miniscule advantage to creatures, and UK's system gives a miniscule increase to CR for these abilities. Scent gives a slight edge and allows to track by scent. Darkvision does not alert your opponents due to giving off light, as most of your alternatives would. Once in a while, these things might pay off, and thus are worth (IMHO) the miniscule increase. They don't even increase the CR on their own at the +0.2 rating they currently have (A point could be made to decrease darkvision to maybe 0.1 per 60 feet of range, but that might be overly pedantic).