Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Wulf Ratbane]

The system is flexible enough that I think DMs could add them if they wish.

What this does however is totally mess with the 1 Level = 1 CR dynamic.

The 1 Level = 1 CR dynamic, though, is an illusion. Well, that is to say, it's a fine short-hand, but it's not the whole story.

It is self evident that a Sorcerer with a 20 Charisma is not equivalent to a Sorcerer with a 22 Charisma, even if they are the same level. Add in disparate Strength, Dex, Con, Int, and Wis, and the issue compounds. As the disparity in ability scores increases, so does the disparity in CR.

As a DM, I have thrown out the 4d6 method precisely because it plays havoc with CR's and effective level.

All CR's should be based on the standard array, or some standard (even if it is just the MM's recommended 10's and 11's across the board), and any deviation from that standard will change the CR balance.

Obviously, within the context of the same ability score standard, 1 Level = 1 CR, as you suggest, but I don't think you can pooh-pooh ability scores that are the result of random generation (in the case of characters) or DM tweaking (in the case of monsters); and Size, Wealth, and Level do not account for all of the possible CR-altering increases of ability score. Sometimes you just want to tweak a score up.

Sure, it's easy enough for me to add .1 here and there, which is what I have done, but I love the completeness of your system and I see a gaping hole in your logic on this point, that really boggles me. It's like you've painted the Mona Lisa-- and then put Groucho Marx glasses on her.

Wulf

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Hey there UK!

With V4 on the verge of coming out, I'd like you to rate a monster I stated up, or if possible mosey on over to Dicefreaks and rate some of Serge's templates (Demon Prince....). If you will just hit me back, and I'll post her. Keep up the good work man!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Version 4 tomorrow. Definately. *Sticks neck out*

I knew that idiot would get me into trouble.

My computer has been down virtually all day, I have been having intermittent problems all week (I think I had mentioned this to poil brun) but it really all went pear-shaped this morning and its only just back on a few minutes ago.

Still not 100% sure what the problem is (experts having just went over the machine) but it seems to be working at the moment, so fingers crossed.

Obviously this has hampered my finishing of v4 today. Not sure whether I will get things finished tonight (my time); but you can rest assured I will get it done as soon as I possibly can.

I'll also reply to various posts and emails in due course...naturally.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Appreciate the support Kavon mate (I'll email you shortly)!

Hey Wulf dude!

The 1 Level = 1 CR dynamic, though, is an illusion. Well, that is to say, it's a fine short-hand, but it's not the whole story.

Depends how exacting you want to be.

It is self evident that a Sorcerer with a 20 Charisma is not equivalent to a Sorcerer with a 22 Charisma, even if they are the same level. Add in disparate Strength, Dex, Con, Int, and Wis, and the issue compounds. As the disparity in ability scores increases, so does the disparity in CR.

I am more concerned with how they got those scores rather than what the scores are.

As a DM, I have thrown out the 4d6 method precisely because it plays havoc with CR's and effective level.

All CR's should be based on the standard array, or some standard (even if it is just the MM's recommended 10's and 11's across the board), and any deviation from that standard will change the CR balance.

Well the generic creature base averages 10.5 whereas the elite creature base averages 12.

Obviously, within the context of the same ability score standard, 1 Level = 1 CR, as you suggest, but I don't think you can pooh-pooh ability scores that are the result of random generation (in the case of characters) or DM tweaking (in the case of monsters); and Size, Wealth, and Level do not account for all of the possible CR-altering increases of ability score. Sometimes you just want to tweak a score up.

Other than random ability scores (from character generation) can you name an ability score modifier I don't otherwise rate?

Sure, it's easy enough for me to add .1 here and there, which is what I have done, but I love the completeness of your system and I see a gaping hole in your logic on this point, that really boggles me. It's like you've painted the Mona Lisa-- and then put Groucho Marx glasses on her.

These are words coming from someone who has yet to plumb the depths of trying to revise the CRs of the entire Monster Manual.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there UK!

Hi Dark Wolf mate!

With V4 on the verge of coming out, I'd like you to rate a monster I stated up,

Sure, one CR is a breeze...600+ is like a hurricane though.

or if possible mosey on over to Dicefreaks and rate some of Serge's templates (Demon Prince....).

Maybe when I get a bit of spare time.

If you will just hit me back, and I'll post her.

Sure post it here or give me a direct link.

Keep up the good work man!

I'm trying.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Other than random ability scores (from character generation) can you name an ability score modifier I don't otherwise rate?

Sure. I have an illithid-kin aberration with a 23 Int, 24 Wis, and 25 Cha, and a host of spell-like abilities. Those increases are not due to class level, nor to wealth/equipment, nor to HD increases, nor to Size. They are set at those levels because that's where I, as the DM, arbitrarily set them.

It is clear prima facia that this creature is not the same CR as the same exact creature with all other factors equal, but only a 10 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha.

In order to find the correct CR for this creature, I have to look in your design parameters for the "back door" explanation of +.1 CR per +1 ability score increase.

All I am saying is, ability score changes warrant a serious place in the palette of CR increases.

I know, it's not as if you haven't explained it, the rules are there; I just don't understand why you won't give it the serious attention it merits and move it up front where it belongs.

FYI-- Did I read somewhere (MM 3.5?) that the elite array adds +1 CR to a creature-- or did I dream it?

Seriously looking forward to the release! Excelsior!

Wulf

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Here she is mate!

Pale Night, Demon Queen of Ravens

Based off of Serge's Demiurge template FYI!

 

[ciaran00]

...because that's where I, as the DM, arbitrarily set them....

In order to find the correct CR for this creature, I have to look in your design parameters for the "back door" explanation of +.1 CR per +1 ability score increase.

If you're arbitrarily setting them without paying heed to the design parameters then expecting the design rules to work, it's... uh... weird? +.1 CR per ability increase gives +4 CR to the creature above simply due to stats. Tack on more for other abilities. It's not "back door" as you put it, it's in the first section in the v3 document. Not sure what you are getting all excited about.

U_K, in v4 is actually breaking down these CRs for us. What else does this system need (besides some SR advice from Eldorian?)

ciaran

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If you're arbitrarily setting them without paying heed to the design parameters then expecting the design rules to work, it's... uh... weird? +.1 CR per ability increase gives +4 CR to the creature above simply due to stats. Tack on more for other abilities. It's not "back door" as you put it, it's in the first section in the v3 document.

Just because they are set arbitrarily does not mean they are outside the design parameters. Don't jump to conclusions.

Allow me to quote from the v3 document:

Initially ability scores were also considered a relevant
factor, however, while pertinent to the whole, it became
apparent that including ability scores was much too
pedantic and somewhat unnecessary provided all
characters and creatures are treated equally in that
respect.

It's not pedantic, and they are extremely relevant. It's easily solved-- as he does below: +0.1 for every point.

Also the inclusion of ability scores into the list
of factors interfered with one of the fundamental
dynamics of the game, namely that you could generally
determine a characters CR from its level alone.

This is a fallacy that undermines the trust in the system.

Take two 1st level fighters. One has an average ability score array-- all 10's and 11's.

The other has all 18's.

UK insists that they are both CR1. That is clearly not the case. The second fighter is +4 to hit, +4 to damage, +4 to AC, +4 Initiative, +4 hp's, +4 skill points, and +2 to Reflex, Fort, and Will saves.

It's not pedantic at all to note the distinction between these two characters. The "super stat" character clearly has a higher effective level than the first.

This is relevant.

A DM needs to know the CR of the foes he throws at his players, and if his players have stats that are above average, he'll also very quickly find that encounters that are balanced for average ability scores are too easy for the "super stat" characters. I know. I've seen it in my own campaigns, both as a player and a DM.

Ability scores are not factored into a characters or
creatures CR (though see Design Parameters).

But they should be.

However, the method for including them is retained herein so that
you can understand the methodology behind how they
influence various Templates; creature Types and factors
such as Size.

What I am "all excited" about is that UK is doing himself a disservice with this disclaimer and this insistence that ability scores don't matter. I'm not attacking UK's system-- I am very excited about it, it's awesome deconstructive design work. I am simply saying it could be better, and more forcefully defended, if he didn't insist on a clearly fallacious premise.

CR +0.1/every additional point
CR -0.1/every subtracted point

The solution is right there, he's got it-- he just needs to stand behind it, rather than dismissing its relevance.

Wulf

 

[poilbrun]

Take two 1st level fighters. One has an average ability score array-- all 10's and 11's.

The other has all 18's.

UK insists that they are both CR1. That is clearly not the case. The second fighter is +4 to hit, +4 to damage, +4 to AC, +4 Initiative, +4 hp's, +4 skill points, and +2 to Reflex, Fort, and Will saves.

It's not pedantic at all to note the distinction between these two characters. The "super stat" character clearly has a higher effective level than the first.

To sum up the discussion which took place before, if you raise the CR of the fighter who's got all 18's, basically, you punish him because he was lucky in his dice rolls, which is not the least logical. If you decide to use point buy, then sure every character is the same as the other one. But remember that point buy is still only an option, and that only 4d6 drop lowest is the only one talked about in the PH.

In my opinion, ability scores should be counted in opponents CR, not in the characters' CR.