Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hi all!
What do the rest of you think?

Hmmm... Yes... Interesting. Indeed.

I think we need to see v.4 before we can make an accurate assessment.


Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

Not to me, but then again, I haven't been close to the development.

Let me try and explain the reasoning behind the Golden and Silver rules:

The Golden Rule

The Golden Rule was designed to inhibit the CR of monsters that have powers exceeding typical design parameters.

eg. If we kit a Skeleton out with 30th-level character equipment its still going to have all the inherant vulnerabilities of a 1HD Skeleton so it won't get the same time to ply its new toys as a more powerful creature would.

eg. A 1st-level Commoner with the Paragon Template will also not gain the full CR increase from that Template.

The Silver Rule

The Silver Rule was developed to balance monsters against the core classes which were found to be on average CR +1.16 per Level.

eg. A 20th-level Barbarian works out to be CR 23. But obviously we want to maintain the mechanic of CR +1 per Level (since thats the basic mantra). So the Barbarian becomes CR 20; but we also have to reduce monsters by a similar amount to balance them.

Any clearer?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K

Hi Kavon mate!

- Well, I guess it does make it a bit less.. I dunno.

...flowing?

- Hmm... I guess I would, since I'd want to make my own stuff, and I'm sure others would too

True.

- I have no idea

It's.. Kinda like a double-edged blade. We could all say it's fine and dandy, and you'd give us v4 and all.
Or.. we could say it's not so smooth, you'd go back to work on it, and we'd need to wait a whole lot longer still

I want the system to be both intuitive and accurate. At the moment I can seemingly only have one.

I wasn't too worried about the Golden Rule since that really only applies to about 10% of core/epic monsters.

But this 'Silver Rule' has me somewhat perturbed. If I put my mind to it I am sure a solution will present itself though.

Maybe something for a v5?
Or do you think it won't take that much time?

Don't ask me I just work here.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

Hmmm... Yes... Interesting. Indeed.

I think we need to see v.4 before we can make an accurate assessment.

I would have had that finished a week ago if it wasn't for those meddling kids...


...I mean 600+ Monster CRs.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hi Kavon mate!

I want the system to be both intuitive and accurate. At the moment I can seemingly only have one.

But, I am not sure that "averaging" all of the core classes is necessarily accurate, either. If you find that some of the core classes' abilities add up on the low side, and some add up on the high side, how does taking the average really aim for accuracy?

I mean, frankly, I don't think that a 20th level cleric is an equivalent encounter to a 20th level wizard, nor a 20th level rogue, nor a 20th level fighter.

You want all of these to be CR20, but if the system says they aren't, I think you have to trust your system.

Now, I think it's perfectly fine for you to say, "You can safely estimate any given character class = CR," (or even .86 CR) but if the DM wants to be completely honest and accurate about it, let him suss it out with your system and let the CRs fall where they may.

EDIT: One more point to make. The "core classes" are a "package deal." If you can pick and choose abilities and put them together into precisely the package you want, you will inevitably be more effective than a core class character who takes some of the limitations of each class along with the benefits. Customizability is always more powerful than strictly defined classes. That may be one very good reason that when you add up the CR factors, they come out a little higher.


Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Is the Silver Rule dead...?

Hi Wulf mate!

Okay I think I have solved the riddle of steel...er, silver. The panic is over!

But, I am not sure that "averaging" all of the core classes is necessarily accurate, either. If you find that some of the core classes' abilities add up on the low side, and some add up on the high side, how does taking the average really aim for accuracy?

Well we know that 'on average' 1 Level = 1 CR. Therefore the mean CR of all the classes is the closest we can get to 'on average'.

I mean, frankly, I don't think that a 20th level cleric is an equivalent encounter to a 20th level wizard, nor a 20th level rogue, nor a 20th level fighter.

Well if you wanted to really get into it.

Cleric 1 Level = +1.129 (average)
Wizard 1 Level = +1.05 (average)
Fighter 1 Level = +0.935 (average)
Rogue 1 Level = +0.926 (average)

...and I'll swear to that on a stack of Immortals Handbooks.

You want all of these to be CR20, but if the system says they aren't, I think you have to trust your system.

I know the system is right, but I think you want to shy away from over-complicating things whenever possible.

The '1 Level = 1 CR' rule is one of the building blocks of my system.

Now, I think it's perfectly fine for you to say, "You can safely estimate any given character class = CR," (or even .86 CR) but if the DM wants to be completely honest and accurate about it, let him suss it out with your system and let the CRs fall where they may.

EDIT: One more point to make. The "core classes" are a "package deal." If you can pick and choose abilities and put them together into precisely the package you want, you will inevitably be more effective than a core class character who takes some of the limitations of each class along with the benefits. Customizability is always more powerful than strictly defined classes. That may be one very good reason that when you add up the CR factors, they come out a little higher.

Agreed. Or at least I think there is some leverage herein.

Actually I think the Silver Rule is now obsolete. The latest intelligence reports suggest that the epic class levels average around +0.94 (or thereabouts, I'll have the exact figures shortly). What this means is that even at best the Silver Rule would only apply to non-epic levels which would be cancelled by epic levels.

So I think I should be able to leave the Silver Rule out*, though just remember I warned you that PCs will be about 16% more powerful (pound for pound) at levels 1-20. I'll have to make a note to DMs in v4.

*Huzzah!!!

Darn it! Just as I was ready to unleash the Bronze; Brass and Copper Rules too. Foiled again!

You may be able to outsmart Professor Stephen Hawking but you have to get up pretty early to outwit the self styled Ayatollah of rock and rollah-playing.

 

[Clay_More]

Why is it I get a mental image of a small, furry, pink, mechanical bunny with a drum when I see this thread? Ahem......

Anyways, just wanted to say that I have now successfully used V4 to translate all my current Necromancer's Legacy 2 monsters into a usable CR and I havent found one single example of error. I know that the current discussion is centred on the issue of class levels, but I dont care, cuz I am a drunk dane. We have the right to make strange and unfitting comments where we see fit

As long as you dont take it to extremes with the sole purpose of breaking it, monsters will end up with a fair and joust CR. Especially if you drink some golden beer before you calculate (personal opinion, just to make sure you get it). Which reminds me, do you ever come around Scandinavia Mr. Krust?

After all, danish is one of the languages that contributed to the present form of English, we are like the step-mother of modern English. And we do make a nasty Brew...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

For The Love Of God, Give Me A Link To V4.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Why is it I get a mental image of a small, furry, pink, mechanical bunny with a drum when I see this thread? Ahem......

Anyways, just wanted to say that I have now successfully used V4 to translate all my current Necromancer's Legacy 2 monsters into a usable CR and I havent found one single example of error.

I don't think you mean v4 mate - I haven't released that one yet.

I know that the current discussion is centred on the issue of class levels, but I dont care, cuz I am a drunk dane. We have the right to make strange and unfitting comments where we see fit

True.

As long as you dont take it to extremes with the sole purpose of breaking it, monsters will end up with a fair and joust CR.

If you are happy with it I think that shows the robust nature of the previous versions.

Especially if you drink some golden beer before you calculate (personal opinion, just to make sure you get it).

Depending on how much you drink you could end up setting a Hecatonchiere against your 1st-level players.

Which reminds me, do you ever come around Scandinavia Mr. Krust?

Not so far, but I have always wanted to go skiing...

After all, danish is one of the languages that contributed to the present form of English, we are like the step-mother of modern English. And we do make a nasty Brew...

...Version 4...probably the best Challenge Rating mechanics in the world.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

For The Love Of God, Give Me A Link To V4.

Easy Tiger! Clay_More is getting carried away with himself. He doesn't have V4 yet.