Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Cergorach]

Oh... Looky here what i stumbled upon! Someone has already done all the work for me.

I just downloaded v1 (i think), a most awesome project UK! I have been contemplating something similar for a couple of months, now i find this tread by chance, and i don't have to do all the boring calculating stuff anymore (you've already done it for me). If people are waiting for version 4, there must be a version 3, but i can't find it in all these darned posts, can someone please give me a link to it? Or would it be wiser to wait for v4 before joining the discussion?

 

[kreynolds]

...can someone please give me a link to it?

Here.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cergorach!

Oh... Looky here what i stumbled upon! Someone has already done all the work for me.

Glad to be of assistance.

I just downloaded v1 (i think), a most awesome project UK!

Looking back at v1 now I wince at how poor it was executed.

I have been contemplating something similar for a couple of months, now i find this tread by chance, and i don't have to do all the boring calculating stuff anymore (you've already done it for me).

Tell me about it.

If people are waiting for version 4, there must be a version 3, but i can't find it in all these darned posts, can someone please give me a link to it? Or would it be wiser to wait for v4 before joining the discussion?

Thanks for helping out kreynolds mate.

 

[Cergorach]

Thanks kreynolds for the link!

v3 does look a lot better than v1 ;-)

A couple of questions, why are ability scores not that important? A Con of 10 or a Con of 30 makes a huge difference.

Although wealth is a good indicator for magical items etc, some magical items are extremely powerful in the right hands (+ ability boosters are 'cheap' and very effective). I'm wondering if magical items should be included in the CR calculations, or that wealth rules should be created. Or atleast guidelines for wealth, only useful items in the encounter should count (or something, what use is a +6 int item to a fighter for example).

Uhm... Complex, although i like it, and it will definately be used in the creation of encounters, etc. I think 90% of the DMs out there will balk at the complexity. I think it might be a good idea to make a rules light version of the thing, that includes all the CRs of the Monsters, a couple of guidelines for the PCs and tables instead of formulas. This can then be used as a rules light version for the other 90% of the DMs.

This thing needs a computer program, i can see the pain that a single change could bring, recalculating all the CRs by hand, ouch! Have you, or anyone else written a program that can handle handfed monsters/PCs and/or creatures from a database?

I found that the difference between 4 and 5 PCs was huge, definately a 25% increase in power, if not more. An 'average' party of four in D&D is:
- 1 Warrior type (fighter, ranger, paladin, monk)
- 1 Thief type (thief, bard)
- 1 Mage type (wizard, sorceror)
- 1 Priest type (cleric, druid)
When you add an additional Warrior type to a party of four, the screening ability of the party increases by 50%, add a Mage type and the parties firesupport ability increases by 50%, etc.

Multiple opponents: Can i assume that greater numbers than 23 have no impact on the EL? 100 1st lvl fighters vs 4 characters for example.

Nice stuff, food for thought...

 

[kreynolds]

Uhm... Complex, although i like it, and it will definately be used in the creation of encounters, etc. I think 90% of the DMs out there will balk at the complexity.

The encounter math is bit funky, but I believe it's a necessary evil. The DMG assumes that all parties will have 4 to 5 characters. Because of this, the MM gives challenge ratings based on this assumption. What you end up with is a big ol' monster book with completely inaccurate challenge ratings if your party doesn't consist of 4 to 5 players.

UK's system assumes a 1 to 1 ratio, then you take the math from there. It seems cumbersome at first, but in actual fact, its efficient. It just doesn't seem that way because the EL system in the DMG is just so damn quick-and-dirty.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Cergorach mate!

v3 does look a lot better than v1 ;-)

I still think v3 looks terrible, certainly compared to the latest incarnation.

A couple of questions, why are ability scores not that important? A Con of 10 or a Con of 30 makes a huge difference.

Ability Scores are absorbed into other factors; eg. Size; Race; Equipment/Magic; HD/Level Progression etc.

Although wealth is a good indicator for magical items etc, some magical items are extremely powerful in the right hands (+ ability boosters are 'cheap' and very effective). I'm wondering if magical items should be included in the CR calculations, or that wealth rules should be created. Or atleast guidelines for wealth, only useful items in the encounter should count (or something, what use is a +6 int item to a fighter for example).

Equipment is a tangible factor.

I can't remember exactly how its dealt with in previous versions but v4 handles it properly.

Uhm... Complex, although i like it, and it will definately be used in the creation of encounters, etc. I think 90% of the DMs out there will balk at the complexity.

I have tried to simplify it as much as possible for v4.

I think it might be a good idea to make a rules light version of the thing, that includes all the CRs of the Monsters, a couple of guidelines for the PCs and tables instead of formulas. This can then be used as a rules light version for the other 90% of the DMs.

I'll be interested to hear what you think of v4.

This thing needs a computer program, i can see the pain that a single change could bring, recalculating all the CRs by hand, ouch!

Spare a thought for poor uncle krust then.

Have you, or anyone else written a program that can handle handfed monsters/PCs and/or creatures from a database?

If someone wants to attempt this (preferably based on v4) they are more than welcome.

I found that the difference between 4 and 5 PCs was huge, definately a 25% increase in power, if not more. An 'average' party of four in D&D is:
- 1 Warrior type (fighter, ranger, paladin, monk)
- 1 Thief type (thief, bard)
- 1 Mage type (wizard, sorceror)
- 1 Priest type (cleric, druid)
When you add an additional Warrior type to a party of four, the screening ability of the party increases by 50%, add a Mage type and the parties firesupport ability increases by 50%, etc.

This is dealt with via situational modifiers.

Multiple opponents: Can i assume that greater numbers than 23 have no impact on the EL? 100 1st lvl fighters vs 4 characters for example.

I have an extended table to explain this in v4

Nice stuff, food for thought...

Merely an appetizer before the main course.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

The encounter math is bit funky, but I believe it's a necessary evil. The DMG assumes that all parties will have 4 to 5 characters. Because of this, the MM gives challenge ratings based on this assumption. What you end up with is a big ol' monster book with completely inaccurate challenge ratings if your party doesn't consist of 4 to 5 players.

UK's system assumes a 1 to 1 ratio, then you take the math from there. It seems cumbersome at first, but in actual fact, its efficient. It just doesn't seem that way because the EL system in the DMG is just so damn quick-and-dirty.

 

[Cergorach]

Ok, most of the things i have 'issues' with will be 'solved' in v4. When then can we expect v4? I'll take a look at making a phpnuke module that can do all the calculations, i can't promise anything though.

 

[Leopold]

uk=teh fibber!!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Cergorach mate!

Ok, most of the things i have 'issues' with will be 'solved' in v4.

I aims to please.

When then can we expect v4?

Probably best if I keep my mouth shut and just say it'll be finished when its finished. I made the grievous error last week of changing elements of v4 while I was halfway through determining the CRs. Of course the changes were for the better but having to start them all again was like getting hit by a mental sledgehammer.

I'll take a look at making a phpnuke module that can do all the calculations, i can't promise anything though.

Hey no worries mate.